A Question about Rampage's Death

[Dreamscreamer]

Eh I'm sure that this topic has probably been covered before, somewhere. But regardless...

I am curious about something. And I'd like to hear your thoughts. Why did Rampage allow himself to be killed by Depth Charge?

Personally, there are two theories I go by, and maybe one or both of them could be true.

One of the theories is actually something that I once read in a fanfic. (Don't ask me which one, I don't remember the title or the author.) It basically focused on Rampage's thoughts right before his death. And it said something like, "Why did I let you kill me? It's because I know I've already won. I see the same look in your eyes that I know is in mine; the sense to kill."

Not an exact quote, but I'm sure you get the idea. Anyway... I think that could be a sound theory.

The other theory is actually one I used, sort of, in a fanfic I had started to write once, (One that I deleted recently cuz I knew I was never going to finish it anyway, lol). Basically, my idea was that the reason why Rampage let Depth Charge kill him was because he figured he would still live on in a way, through Dinobot 2's clone, since half of his spark existed there. And if this theory is true, then he probably didn't expect old Dinobot to take over, so to speak.

But yeah, those are just a couple of theories. What are your thoughts?

[Razor One]

Rampage was and always will be a psychopath.

Borrowing Wikipedia for a moment...

Primary psychopathy was defined by those following this theory as the root disorder in patients diagnosed with it, whereas secondary psychopathy was defined as an aspect of another psychiatric disorder or social circumstances. Today, primary psychopaths are considered to have mostly Factor 1 traits from the PCL-R (arrogance, callousness, manipulativeness, lying) whereas secondary psychopaths have a majority of Factor 2 traits (impulsivity, boredom proneness, irresponsibility, lack of long-term goals).

Secondary psychopaths show normal to above-normal physiological responses to (perceived) potential threats; their crimes tend to be unplanned and impulsive with little thought of the consequences. According to those using this theory, this type have hot tempers and are prone to reactive aggression. They experience normal to above-normal levels of anxiety but are nevertheless highly stimulus-seeking and have trouble tolerating boredom. Their lifestyle may lead to depression and even suicide.

Reading the description of secondary psychopaths, we can see that it fits Rampage down to a T.

Given that he's a psychopath we have to abandon traditional reasoning to a degree. Rampage just doesn't think like a rational person.

In a way, Rampage may have been a death seeker. He knew he couldn't die, so he killed others by way of jealousy. In so doing, he probably felt like he was getting a taste of death, getting close to the thing he would forever be denied.

As to why he let Depth Charge kill him? Hmm. It's possible that Depth Charge managed to convince he might be able to die at last.

"Raw energon, right through your twisted spark. TAKE IT! TAKE IT STRAIGHT TO THE PIT, YOU SICKENING PIECE OF SLAG!!!"

Might have been just enough to make him pause, think about it, and let him try. If he succeeded, Rampage would get the death he always desired. If not, he really did have nothing to lose either way. At that point he was enslaved to Megatron through Dinobot 2 with no chance of freedom at any point.

[Phoenix]

I think the answer might be that part of Rampage was miserable with life and wanted to simply end it all, and it gave him great pleasure to bring his nemesis down to his own level upon doing so.

Rampage struck me as being very lonely in his psychopathic ways. This became clear to me in the episode where he befriends Transmutate, another outcast that was different from those around her.

[Lady Venom]

I agree with most thoughts stated here.

Though I have to wonder, and my own theory is that he actually didn't die. He's fashioned after Starscreams unkillable spark. Which we know really can't die if you pay attention to BW.

Since you see that spark just randomly floating through space and such. So, honestly, I believe that even with the energon straight to the spark, as a transmetal (which already has super high resistance to Energon) and his immortal ways; I don't think he actually died.

I think he was bored of the game. To me, Rampage does things merely because it's just a game. With the pieces falling away (Maximals and Preds having this last battle, the knowledge that people would be going back to Cybertron, a place where they wanted to lock him up again and take away his fun) there was no place for him there.

So instead, he let that game end. Depth Charge knew he would die, when he shoved it in there, he had too.

So, when your mouse is that adamant to end things, you know he's becoming bored (in a sense) of the fun Rampage was having.

So, when one game is finally finished, you pick up the pieces and look around for a new plaything.


Edited;

Just realized that while typing all this out, a song kept playing over and over in my head and I think it's fitting.

Dangerous Game - 3 Doors Down

[SilverfromOZ]

The psychopathic nature of Rampage is unquestionable, however the layers of depth that lie within are quite interesting. Although it was a one-off episode, "Transmutate" brought alot of the "obvious" answers into question. There is no doubt in my mind that Rampage loved the "game" LV mentioned, however it is not an all encompassing thing. There was no game being played with Transmutate as he showed genuine sadness at her destruction. Admittedly, this could be because he saw her as a pawn to use against Megs to gain his freedom, however I think not, for the anguish he displayed seemed considerably more personal. I like the concept of Rampage as the former tortured soul within secret Maximal labs being the cause of his personality. Simply because he was created from Starscream does not mean he was necessarily evil to begin with. Good can beget evil and vice versa, Luke Skywalker from Anakin, as a strong example. I suppose this also appeals to my love of Deadpool (pretty much the same story... which I only just realised by typing this ) and it is fascinating to see the similarities and differences between the two.

Rampage seems to be a potent mix of two key "horror" characters:
-Hannibal Lecter (the cannibalism, psychological games and elquence)
- Jason Vorhees (strength, regeneration, "undeath")

Interestingly, Jason Vorhees lives in a somewhat "anti-hero" position as he does not kill "innocents" i.e. those who are still pure e.g. children as his own social development is in effect that of a child. The same can also be said about Rampage, for all his eloquence and games, he is belligerent, moody and unstable i.e. child like. It would be interesting to see whether he showed mercy to anyone else in the past and what his purposes were.

My theory would be that Transmutate was as "broken" as he was and thus saw a kindred spirit. I would also say that Depth Charge wasn't "lucky" or survived due to any particular skills he had at the time, but instead was left alive by Rampage to tell others of what he had done, but it could also be said that Depth Charge was being groomed for the task of killing Rampage.

/end rant... for now

[Lady Venom]

The thing is though, true psychopaths don't understand/can't fathom the real emotions of love/acceptance/kindreds of any kind.

It's always been and always will be, a twisted means to further the end.

[SilverfromOZ]

So you're saying the anguish be felt at the end of Transmutate was more out of fury (i.e. still remaining in Megs control) than a personal attachment to Transmutate? Or that the whims of a true psychopath are not that linear?

[Lady Venom]

From making it my own personal life's desire through the last thirteen years to studying the mentally deranged(including talking to actual pyschs and other means)

Though yes, I feel it was more that HE wasn't the one to have ended it. Think about it, he was still playing, still enjoying a new toy. It was taken away from him; leaving him with nothing.

If ever he felt any sort of attachment, it was on a purely manipulative means.

[SilverfromOZ]

Fair enough. So making him constantly in control of that particular situation. There's an interesting side point (maybe straying a little from the main point, but it could be relevant in his overall psycho-analysis ). How do you feel about his place under Megatron's command? Same thing there? (ie did he see Megs as a plaything that he could take down whenever he wanted to (I'm recalling the tense moment where he has Megs in his sights and then turns away to destroy the mountain)) Or was Megs the only one who had "control" over Rampage?

[Lady Venom]

I think he viewed Megs as the same way he viewed the scientists that kept him in 'chains' so to speak. Something that he would break away from; Megs was definitely the power holder there and Rampage knew it, and hated it.

Despite the slightly long leash Megatron did give him. The power of Transmutate was enormous, and he was shocked and then obviously pleased too, with it.

I think he saw her as a means to break away from Megatron, and to use for his own desires. Another tool to further an end (which is why he was so upset when she died, another theory.)

[Darkshadow14]

To me it was:

He wanted his playmate to be killed no matter the cost. Well if you look, both of them died. Rampage's body died, his spark is indestructable (sp?) so I still think Rampy's spark is traveling space.

I have told people that I wanted to beat up years ago, if I go down I'm bringing them with me. So maybe the same thing with DC and Rampy.

[SilverfromOZ]

Hmmm very interesting. I love how there is so much depth within Rampage to bring about this discussion. There are views here which I had never really considered until now, and being the brilliantly unstable creature that he is, all of them a strong possibilities.. maybe even at the same time

[Wicked Woman]

There was a fanfic I read some time ago stating that Rampage saw potential in Depth Charge to kill but that he lacked enough Hatred. (of course in this fic, DC was told about Rampage's history and pitied him then, which infuriated Rampage)

So perhaps he was happy that in the end, he won out, making Depth Charge the exact killing machine he vowed to destroy.

*shrugs* or I'm just rambling because I haven't eaten breakfast yet.


WW

[Blazemane]

The thing is though, true psychopaths don't understand/can't fathom the real emotions of love/acceptance/kindreds of any kind.

It's always been and always will be, a twisted means to further the end.

Though yes, I feel it was more that HE wasn't the one to have ended it. Think about it, he was still playing, still enjoying a new toy. It was taken away from him; leaving him with nothing.

If ever he felt any sort of attachment, it was on a purely manipulative means.

I do actually believe Rampage was feeling loss for a kindred spirit in Transmutate.

Since you've studied mental concerns for the last 13 years, I trust your assertion that psychopaths can't understand true empathy. I mean there might be a question about how to define love, acceptance and kindred, but that stipulation is sort of besides the point for me right now.

So, I will then conclude, as you are, that a psychopath feeling loss for someone he or she truly finds to have been a kindred spirit is a paradox.

Therefore, to say that Rampage felt true loss for Transmutate presents a logical problem. But I think there are two ways of solving that problem:

1.) Either we change our perceptions of the characters being observed

-You suggest, for example, that because Rampage is a psychopath, he couldn't have truly felt loss over Transmutate's death- he must have been mad he wasn't the one to destroy her. Then again, maybe you have always perceived that episode that way which would technically mean this isn't a change in perceptions for you. But it would be for me.

-Within this option we could also say that maybe Rampage just isn't a psychopath.

Or

2.) It is possible that our perception of Rampage both being a psychopath and feeling loss over Transmutate is actually correct, and the reason for the paradox lies within the writers of the specific episode.

I believe option 2 is the more accurate of the two options.

I, for example, did not know what you asserted a few posts up, about psychopaths not feeling true empathy, until you said so (and backed up your claim with an impressive 13 years of research). It is possible, therefore, that the writers were also unaware of this contradiction- that they thought a psychopath like Rampage could feel loss, and then wrote him that way to add even more weight to his character.

And I think there's evidence for that possibility too:

I don't think I need to provide any evidence on why Rampage is a psychopath. Everyone seems to agree on that. So, what evidence is there to suggest he felt loss for Transmutate?

First there's his statement when Transmutate's coming out of her (?) pod "Yes, yes, I feel your pain, your desperation. Your Spark is powerful! Fight your way free! Fight!" This could just be that he wants to have her around for a while before he destroys her, but I guess it never hit me that way.

Then there's his statement "The darkness of its spark echoes my own. It belongs with me!" This could technically be perceived, again, as evidence of him wanting Transmutate as another game, but... in all the times I've watched that episode, that possibility has never even occurred to me. This may be because he said "belongs with me" as opposed to "belongs to me".

"We are two of a kind. We belong together." Belong isn't normally spoken in reference to a temporary condition, though that, too, is possible.

I think the biggest factor in this, thought, is the fact that Silverbolt's last line was "for the moment we are brothers."

No, Silverbolt isn't Rampage. Yes, Silverbolt could have misperceived the reasoning for Rampage's sorrow. But Silverbolt's dialogue isn't just an extension of his own convictions. Especially in view of the fact that this was the very last line of the episode, it seems very much so that the writers were giving their final conclusion of the matter to the audience. If Rampage was not truly feeling empathy for Transmutate, then, psychopath or not, the writer's would have had to intend that for him the whole time. And if they did, then Silverbolt's conclusion would essentially be an intentional attempt to throw the audience off. It would be a lie, from the writers to the audience- good in the middle of a 24 episode, but rather mean, and perhaps, pointless, at the very end of a character developing Beast Wars episode.

And I must consider what evidence there is for the possibility that he was just angry he didn't destroy her himself. The biggest evidence here would be his psychopathic nature.

But firstly, he did destroy her. It took Silverbolt's missiles too, but Rampage's ammunition was on the other side of the force field she was in when she died.

And secondly, there's something to be said for the fact that Rampage didn't go chasing after the Maximals after her death. If he had merely lost a toy or a chance for a game or a tool to get his spark back, it seems quite likely that his first reaction would have been vengeance. I can't claim to understand someone like Rampage fully, but he does not seem the type to simply brood over something if he felt he must be given restitution for it that he could actually achieve.

Of course, that argument is double edged- if he would be mad at the Maximals for making him lose a toy, game, or tool, how much angrier would he be at the Maximals for making him lose a kindred spirit?

I think the sorrow of the matter, then, comes from the fact that not only did he lose Transmutate, and that is absolutely halting to him (which indicates, to me, true loss rather than loss over a toy/tool), but he feels no need to seek restitution because he knows he was part of her destruction. He realized he, too, had killed her, and his part in it wasn't the Maximals' fault.

For these reasons, I think that Rampage was meant to be feeling empathy in that episode, and the contradiction in him feeling empathy and still being a psychopath comes from a misconception on the part of the writers.

[7Knight-Wolf]

Actually yes, I think I remember discussing this topic elsewhere before... but that's alright. I've always held the belief that, despite the fact that there is no evidence for it, Rampage let himself be killed because he wanted to die. I've always believed that deep down, Rampage isn't happy with his obsession over violence, that he really knows he wants something more. He hates himself as much as he hates the world. Most people think he is a sociopath, but we saw in Transmutate that he has the capicity for love.