Religious Debate Thread

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Wonko The Sane
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Unread post by Wonko The Sane »

Razor One wrote:
One important thing to remember is that mankind as a whole is Incredibly egocentric. For thousands of years humans presumed the Earth was at the center of the universe and was flat because that suited human sensibilities. The Earth and mankind were the most important, and thus at the center. The Earth had to be flat because it looked flat, and a round earth simply didn't make sense.

Naturally we discovered that this was not so. However, that Egocentrism lives on anyhow. When we think of a god we think of him as possessing a human form. When we consider aliens we think of a very human like figure with perhaps a modified forehead.

Even if said aliens have nothing biologically or chemically similar to humanity, we still stubbornly envision them as humanoid. We consider ourselves the most intelligent life form in existence and that because aliens haven't come to us, there must be none out there at all.

Why must we assume that god has a human form? Because it is written in the bible? The bible was not written by god. It was written by men. Translated through several different languages over a period of thousands of years. The bible today is not the same as it was 1500 years ago.

As for theistic evolutionists, I'm fairly certain their standing is that god is the "Guiding Force" behind evolution and that the story of Genesis is allegorical, which makes sense, since I find it highly doubtful that anyone from 2,000 years ago could count or conceive of a billion years, let alone fifteen billion. We cant either for that matter. It's a gulf of time so immense that no living being on earth could properly comprehend it.

In any case, I think we should end the discussion of God, Evolution and so forth there as the topic is sensitive, off topic, and has explosive potential.

Back to the topic at hand...

I'm fairly certain the earth formed naturally in the Beast Wars Universe and that the Raw Energon present was seeded there by the Vok.

The faction symbols could be interepreted as the "Mark of the Beast" from revelations:
He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

– Rev. 13:16-17

This is what I am currently discussing about in my Second Transtech fanFic,which deals with the narcissism of Human life,being the eliminators of religion and creators of technology.

I am very aware that the writers were going for a 'Religion vs.Science' thing in Beast Wars.The Vok representing a Divine force to shape Earth(But they did not create it,remember that)with evolution,as we clearly see the pre-Humans.

I do not see Dinobot as a Jesus like figure.I wanted to see why He died instead of living for a longer time to teach the people,or,in fact,try to eliminate the Roman Empire in a peaceful manner.He died so the Humans can be redeemed by God,ehich makes me think that something was going to happen in the Divine Realm at this time,as He constantly speaks about the coming of the Kingdom,and,that He lived at THIS time instead of the past or the present.

I never think of God as a physical entity,but I think of that scene from Futurama where Bender saw God as a light,as many people explain that God is a light force,or fiery spirit,or even something like the Bhrama(An unexplained force that is being Human interpretation)


There is a lot of religious topics in Transformers,starting from G1 and Beast Machines used it as their main theme,and,I believe it as a gutsy move for them,and an advancement....too ba for the character inconsistency though.


The Beast in the Revelations,for a while I thought about Beast Wars when reading the tale.

I understand about Razor One not wanting to talk about this more,but I adore talking about religion,no matter the 'explosive' results.So I will not talk to Warrior~San about God's image which I was going to ask her a question:


'What about the non-human animals?'
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Unread post by artemis-lady-warrior »

Non-human animals? God has a big imagination. He's like a painter. Animals are part of that design or painting. Like sunset and stuff.
As for God... if he was just a light the devil would have no reason to overthrow him, now would he. God is a being, a Holy and smart being.
Actually him dying on the cross was prophicied a long time before he was really born. So Jesus was "born to die" he died so we wouldn't have to. When he comes again he'll do his thousand year rule.
I am sorry Razor but she's insistant. STOP IT ALREADY WONKO!

I wonder if the matrix was a biblical thing as well since the word "matrix" is spoekn in the bible as well. hmmmmm........
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Unread post by SkyxDB »

Wonko wrote:
There is a lot of religious topics in Transformers,starting from G1 and Beast Machines used it as their main theme
Yeah, I had before seen comments about Beast Machines having spiritual elements to it. Of course as kid I didn't pick that up. I'll probably have to watch it again sometime to see I can catch this time.

Wonko also wrote:
I adore talking about religion,no matter the 'explosive' results
Considering the subject matter you like Wonko, I think you might like Angel Sanctuary. But I should warn you one of the cannon pairs in that series is an incest pair, that shown in more sympathic light. I'm not into incest pairs, but I like the story. So if don't let that bit bother you, it's a pretty good story and gives you some pretty interesting things to think about in terms of religion.
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Unread post by Wonko The Sane »

Okay fine I'll stop,but I also had a lot of other things to say about the Angels,but I have to keep the rules before I get banned for talking about it any further.

However Artemis,if you and I want to debate on this any further,PM me or something.

I haven't read Angel Sanctuary,but I could be interested with their intepretations on religion,and incest....well,I guess I can ignore it.
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Unread post by SkyxDB »

I think it's worth checking out. Also according to an aurthor's note in one of the volumes of the manga-ka Koari Yuki, wrote and drew out the story because she was interested in the concept of Angels and Fallen Angels and wanted to play around with that a bit. Also about the incest factor, it's mostly because she also wanted it to be a story of forbidden love.
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Unread post by Sinead »

From your resident Theology Student, and yes, I’m enrolled at a real, live theological seminary which location shall remain undisclosed, and no, I’m not becoming a Roman Catholic nun. I want to be married and have children WAY too much to want to stay cloistered away for the rest of my natural life. I would probably go insane if that was my only option for ministry.

I know it’s off topic, but it’s just to state an FYI about some of the biblical stuff brought up, and the odds of some of the things that the Bible addresses that you guys have been questioning and bringing up, and I’ll be doing this in order of when it was said. At the end of this post, I’ll add in what I think about the similarities between Beast Wars and Biblical truth. (But there’s some really cool codes that prove some really cool things, especially authenticity of the Bible.)

Yeah. You just got my attention, ladies and gentleman. I have unlurked.

Please do not reply to this message, but either PM me or send me an email if you wish to speak further upon this. And as forewarning to any mod or admin that finds this post offensive, don’t edit it. I will not stand for my words to be abbreviated, edited, or glossed over. I exercise full use of the First Amendment in the United States of America in this topic. PM me with your issues.

Razor One, you and I should debate over PM or AIM sometime. I won’t comment publicly on any your comments, even though I disagree with you on pretty much everything, because you totally out-rank me, and I’d rather not get a smack on the hand from ya for being “disrespectful to an admin.” I admit that I’m totally offensive to some people because I have a firm Christian faith and refuse to back down on some things.

Artemis, you’re more right on the literal standpoint of the Bible. It’s a fantastic history book, science book, poetry and literature book, and a great tool to find meaning in life. Has anyone else thought about it that way before? Exodus lines up with Egyptian history. There’s evidence of King David’s reign, Solomon’s Temple, and many of the other civilizations in the Old Testament had been respectful of Israel, and later Israel and Judah.

When things were better documented through the Greeks and Romans, you see even more accounts aligning with the Bible. (Look up a historian that lived in the early AD by the name of Josephus.)

7Knight-Wolf, I have to agree with you on the whole feeling God and knowing that He’s there. It’s amazing, isn’t it? And then there’s the point when you can feel Him with you in a harsh circumstance or troublesome time, and you know that through Him, all things are possible.

Wonko, you’re gonna love this! Okay, probably not. n.n If you go back to the Hebrew text, in Genesis 1:26, it uses two words to describe how God made humans in His image: tselem and demooth. The first is a noun masculine and means image or semblance, and the second is a noun feminine and means likeness or similitude. Literally, we are in his image as both male and female, spirit and body, but not quite like God because He’s Glorified, and we’re flesh, flawed.

SkyxDB, Angel Sanctuary is from a Buddhist/Shintoism point of view of Christianity, and from what I’ve researched, it’s completely wrong about most of the Christian views that it gives. The same of Chrono Crusade, which is a very nice Manga, but their view and standpoint of Catholicism is totally skewed, save for a few facts that are more luck-of-the-draw than anything else. While I love Japanese culture, I do have to admit that unless you’re reading a manga that is written by a Japanese Christian, you will not find any truth about Christianity within those pages. I have to agree with Artemis on this: Manga is totally fiction, based very loosely on facts.

Wonko: the animals were created for us to enjoy and be comforted by them. Sorry if you’re PETA, because I have to agree to an omnivorous appetite, but think about a world without beef, chicken, or fish. I would be rather unhappy. As for being comforted, why do you think that God made puppies, dogs, horses, and other very intuitive animals that seem to know when you need to be comforted the most? That’s my question to you.

Artemis, you’re totally on the ball about the prophesy. You can find reference to Jesus and to His life and coming (not to mention second coming if you look to Isaiah and Ezekiel) in every book of the Old Testament. Psalms has multiple prophesies about Jesus within them. It’d take me a while to ferret them all out, though! *grins*

Random facts:

~ The Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Bible we read today, specifically New Testament books and Isaiah, is accurate to the one that was used over 1000 years ago.

~ There is a mathematical code that safeguard the accuracy of the Bible in the New Testament, and there is one in the Old Testament.

~ There are only three languages used to write the Bible: Ancient Hebrew, Chaldean, and Ancient Greek. (Ancient can also be swapped with the word “Biblical.”)

~*~

My take on this is that Beast Wars has a lot of the biblical-story-thing going. The writers decided that people would latch onto something that really had deeper meanings than simple science fiction. You always have to have some odd mystical element to everything, otherwise, nobody will read it. Love, for example, is mystical. Attraction. Dreams. Fantasy. None of it is able to be grasped physically, yet you can find that those are some of the main currents through the greatest of literature and media.

The Covenant of Primus almost directly quotes from the Book of Revelation. And if you read it from a literary standpoint, not even a faith standpoint, you have to admit that to see anything of that sort during that time period that the apostle John was living in, and on the island he wrote it on. That island is 13 square miles of land. Not a lot of space. To compare, Nantucket Island off the coast of Massachusetts is 47 square miles of land.

As a reminder, if you have issues, please reply to be via PM or email. And don’t twist my words or edit them. I have a copy of this saved on my harddrive.
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Unread post by Razor One »

Sinead, check your PM Box :)

I've had some time to consider and I think that I'll be reversing my decision on the moratorium for religious debate in this thread provided the following caveats are adhered to.

1. Respect The Opinion of Others.

2. If you link to off site material that violates the above, consider this thread locked. Come up with your own points of debate.

3. Once you have made a post, you WILL NOT EDIT IT AFTER THE FACT.

4. Always consider the possibility that you are wrong and the other side is right. Keep an open mind.

Have a nice debate, and I WILL be watching :twisted:
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Unread post by Razorclaw »

:shock: Razor-one is watching....I don't want to go there. :lol:

This is the only part of BW that always makes me uncomfortable. I know that it's only a TV show(Though I have a tendancy to treat it like real life),but as I am a Christain(Not a Jew,NOT an Atheist),I have to wonder. Personaly,I don't believe that ANY of the writers for Transformers were ever Christains,though I could be wrong. I know that voice actor Townsend Coleman (Sentinel Prime) professes to be,but I've never heard his take on it.

Just the fact alone that their life source is a "digital soul" makes me wonder. I think the writers took bits and pieces of different religions,and mixed them together,but tried to cover it up with the fact that it's a science fiction show. It creates a "feel good" atmousphere,so to speak,and keeps parents from questioning what their kids are watching.


Here's what we know for sure:All through the series,there was no mention whatsoever of the so called "Covenant of Primus". There were no Biblicaly based episodes,props or lines. The humans evolved from monkeys. Then suddenly,out of blue,at the begining of Nemesis pt 1,Optimus is quoting Bible-like passages from the "Covenant of Primus".
It sounds VERY much like the Bible,but not quite. I don't like the fact that they refer to Megatron using Satan's ilustration name. :x


But then again,what else do you call an evil,giant,techno-organic reptile who plans on taking over the universe? :lol:
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Unread post by SkyxDB »

Sinead wrote:
SkyxDB, Angel Sanctuary is from a Buddhist/Shintoism point of view of Christianity, and from what I’ve researched, it’s completely wrong about most of the Christian views that it gives. The same of Chrono Crusade, which is a very nice Manga, but their view and standpoint of Catholicism is totally skewed, save for a few facts that are more luck-of-the-draw than anything else. While I love Japanese culture, I do have to admit that unless you’re reading a manga that is written by a Japanese Christian, you will not find any truth about Christianity within those pages. I have to agree with Artemis on this: Manga is totally fiction, based very loosely on facts.
I know that's it fictional and not completely true to Christianity. But I like it and I think it brings up some interesting things to think about.

But anyway, from now on I'll try to stay on topic here and I'll think carefully before type. Though sometimes even the thing I type don't come out right sometimes. :oops:
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Unread post by Sinead »

SkyxDB wrote: But anyway, from now on I'll try to stay on topic here and I'll think carefully before type. Though sometimes even the thing I type don't come out right sometimes. :oops:
It happens. When I'm tired, I tend to run my mouth then catch up with it five minutes later. So it's worse because you can't take spoken words back. Especially during a culture clash. But that's off-topic.

I have to agree with Razorclaw on what he said about the Transformers "spirituality" and how it's a combination. They basically take Christianity, any major polytheistic faith, and a smattering of Confucianism and Buddhism and mix it all up. For example, Beast Machines is totally everything about non-Christian meditation, how to go down to no thoughts or emotions at all. Christian meditation means to have a certain scripture or multiple scriptures in mind, and contemplate them, feeling out what meaning they hold for you. (If I'm wrong on that, please excuse me on my misinformation.)

In essence, Optimus Primal turned from famed warrior and fighter for justice ... into a wussie ninny who began to backslide into a pity-party woe-is-me pacifism.

But that's just my opinion. XD
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Unread post by SkyxDB »

Yeah I defiinately agree with you on Optimus. Also is it just me or were they times in BM where he didn't even think for himself anymore. It was like he was letting the Orcale make all the decisions for him. Maybe it has something to do with blind faith or something, also considering that he never once questioned what the Orcale said.
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Unread post by 7Knight-Wolf »

Razor One wrote: 4. Always consider the possibility that you are wrong and the other side is right. Keep an open mind.
Uh-huh, and would YOU do the same? Let's test it. Hey Razor one, God might be real. Now, I demand that you respect my beliefs and consider the fact that God is real. :D :D :D
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Unread post by artemis-lady-warrior »

SkyxDB wrote:Yeah I defiinately agree with you on Optimus. Also is it just me or were they times in BM where he didn't even think for himself anymore. It was like he was letting the Orcale make all the decisions for him. Maybe it has something to do with blind faith or something, also considering that he never once questioned what the Orcale said.

you're right about that. That's why I dubbed the show Beast Hippies. Some episodes in that series were so "out of it" I wondered if maybe the writers were on something.

Sinead you're right about Christian meditation. It's got nothing to do with clearing your mind and talking to "voices in your head".

I'm still not sure WHAT the writers in Beast Machines were thinking when they created the storyline but if I had my way I'd burn the whole thing and forget it existed. It was totally inconsistant with the rest of the TF universes anyway. I mean, an ORGANIC core?! O.o what the heck? Depending on what you go by the Q5s make the planet or it's made up of Primus who was also a machine. This isn't Gobotron for goodness sake! Ugh..
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Unread post by 7Knight-Wolf »

SkyxDB wrote:Yeah I defiinately agree with you on Optimus. Also is it just me or were they times in BM where he didn't even think for himself anymore. It was like he was letting the Orcale make all the decisions for him. Maybe it has something to do with blind faith or something, also considering that he never once questioned what the Orcale said.
Actually Optimus did question the Oracle once, when it denied him access to the Matrix. In Beast Machines, the Oracle reminds me of what the Bible is for me: a way to connect with "the Allspark" or God.

Getting back to the point, Optimus is very self-doubting on Beast Machines because he feels that everything is his fault. I think he's trying to get wisdom from the Oracle to legitimitize his ideas, but he still uses his own common sense. Most of the time any way. Granted, he DID misinterpret what the oracle meant about nature.
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Unread post by Baron Fel »

Razorclaw wrote:

Here's what we know for sure:All through the series,there was no mention whatsoever of the so called "Covenant of Primus". There were no Biblicaly based episodes,props or lines. The humans evolved from monkeys. Then suddenly,out of blue,at the begining of Nemesis pt 1,Optimus is quoting Bible-like passages from the "Covenant of Primus".
It sounds VERY much like the Bible,but not quite. I don't like the fact that they refer to Megatron using Satan's ilustration name. :x

The parts with the Covenant of Primus, were written by TF scribe Simon Furman, who among other calling cards loves mixing TF religion into his stories. He created Primus, was the one who made Unicron a dark god instead of some freaky ape-alien's science project, and frankly is responsible for a lot of the basis of BW in TF canon (The Vok are thought to be the remnants of the swarm from G2, a mixture of Matrix engery, tfs, humans, and several other races.) He uses a lot of various mythology in his work. Although quite a bit of various Primus stuff is Christian in background. (as is some of the Unicron things as he in the old Marvel TFs shows up quite often to tempt, seduce, or destroy Cybertronians.)
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