Religious Debate Thread

[7Knight-Wolf]

Rakshash, you seem to know a lot about Muslims. It sounds indeed like it was meant to be a really good religion with a somewhat graceful god. Of course I don't believe in Allah and I think he was made up humans who wanted to have a god that they thought was good for them. In my oppinion, any attempt a human makes at religion or spirituality without basis in scripture is bound to fail. That's why Muslims (not all, but some) have become quite nasty.

And I'm not just talking about Muslims. It's recently come to my attention that many, many of the unspoken rules and ideas that Christains have about spirituality is contradicted in the Bible. That's a result of us believing that we can think of something better that the truth.

What you said about God working through science--I agree. God is the master of science, and he uses it in many many ways. I'm sure that most of his miracles were done by amplifiying scientific truths. I don't know how Jesus turned water into wine, but I'm sure he converted it on an elemental level. He's not a magician.

Their are some things that God does that aren't scientific, or aren't physical, but may have physical results. For example, Jesus did not only suffer and die physically, he was also condemned to hell (not physical) where he suffered in the spirit. Since he was the son of God he conquered death spiritually and physically, and his spirit went back into his body. The physical result was that his body started functioning again. So there is some scientific stuff and some stuff that we can't see or prove.

[Wonko The Sane]

Ok so God is perfect and knows what he's doing when he makes things and since some (not all) people believe he created everything, myself included, WHY would he make is a slow process? WHY would he make all the things around now (humans as the best example) take so long to reach that level when he could just make it all the way it is without taking "millions of years"
If he wanted to create humans wouldn't he make them HUMAN from the start?

First off I agree that 7Knight said that God works through science as I am often told that 'God does not control the weather,he manipulates it'

Same idea can go to our creation as he can manipulate from any result that is bound to happen.To me,we the people do not know the extent of God's abilities...we don't even know if He is all-powerful as we believe in the past and even today...which is the sole reason why I am Agnostic...because God can't do anything in matter of minutes...it is humanly logical that He can do it with many years,just as the planets,the stars,and space was formed for many years...consider it a miracle that it only took us at least less than a million years to be what we are today.

[artemis-lady-warrior]

meh... I was hoping this discussion would just die.

Or less than ten thousand years, depending on what you believe. Just remember, it took him a week to make the planet(depending on your believes).
If he wanted to he could do anything. But... he chooses not to.

Brad Stine said it the best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1deErOCdXQ8 XD

[Nurann]

I had a beautiful response that I'd been working on for an hour. And then internet explorer glitched and ate it.



Apparently, Primus doesn't want me telling that story on past lives right now. Anyways, no, reincarnation is not randomly inspired. It's observation of nature. Cycle of seasons, cycle of the day, matter/energy can't be created/destroyed therefore is cycled, etc. It's the "energy" one I primarily refer to. Anyways, citations may be made available upon request.

um, Rakshask, since I'm not going to retype everything seeing as it's 2 in the morning, I will re-type the THANK YOU!

I didn't think anyone would take me up on that, but I'm happy you did. btw, the way you phrased "Um. No?" - Totally awsome. I can hear the "no slag, shirlock!" tone.

The rest was a mishmash of what Rakshash, wonko, 7knight and artemis said on evolution... but.... X_X

[artemis-lady-warrior]

at least he cleared up the whole islam thing. Thanks.

[Rakshash]

whoa where did you come from all of a sudden?

I often lurk the forums. Used to be quite active....guess I've gotten old. I was/still am the hugest-Dinobot-fan-girl-that-ever-was-in-all-time (along with Sinead)

Can I ask you one thing on the part of evolution?

Ok so God is perfect and knows what he's doing when he makes things and since some (not all) people believe he created everything, myself included, WHY would he make is a slow process? WHY would he make all the things around now (humans as the best example) take so long to reach that level when he could just make it all the way it is without taking "millions of years"
If he wanted to create humans wouldn't he make them HUMAN from the start?

If a slow process, why not a fast one? If a fast one, why not a slow one? Why should millions of people have come before me? Why couldn't I have been first? Why can't I be last? *shrugs* I don't know really, just the face of the evidence as it presents itself to me.

As for Islam... well I never got involved with that discussion so I'm not going to say anything about it.

If Nurann didn't post the challenge I may have floated dreamily on my way through the land of fanfiction. I don't want to take an unduly preachy note. Just it's not every day you get asked to accurately represent your religion!

That's why Muslims (not all, but some) have become quite nasty.

There are a whole bunch of seriously uncool Muslims. The terrorists types need to be left in the Bermuda Triangle.

it is humanly logical that He can do it with many years,just as the planets,the stars,and space was formed for many years...consider it a miracle that it only took us at least less than a million years to be what we are today.

That's one way to look at it. But presuming that an almighty being (nameless) created the universe then these 'rules of the game' meaning the laws of physics, the fact that it takes so long to form stars, planets, black holes etc were also created by that same power. The same person who invented the board game 'snakes and ladders' also made up the rules saying if you land on a ladder that means you get to go ahead in the game and a snake means you go a few steps back, if you see what I mean. So according to the logic of those who believe in a power, these rules as created by that being cannot be violated. Otherwise that'd be cheating.

Anyways, no, reincarnation is not randomly inspired. It's observation of nature. Cycle of seasons, cycle of the day, matter/energy can't be created/destroyed therefore is cycled, etc. It's the "energy" one I primarily refer to. Anyways, citations may be made available upon request.

I was once involved in an awesome discussion regarding the principle that matter can't be created or destroyed. The idea was that our souls are energy that cannot die, hence the concept of an afterlife. Reincarnation I find interesting.

um, Rakshask, since I'm not going to retype everything seeing as it's 2 in the morning, I will re-type the THANK YOU!

Thank YOU, Nurann. *glomp*

Can I ask a question, Nurann? Do Wiccans believe in an 'end of the world' apocalypse type thing?

at least he cleared up the whole islam thing. Thanks

*gentle nudge* She.

[7Knight-Wolf]

If a slow process, why not a fast one? If a fast one, why not a slow one? Why should millions of people have come before me? Why couldn't I have been first? Why can't I be last? *shrugs* I don't know really, just the face of the evidence as it presents itself to me.

As I've said, I can't prove or disprove evolution for sure. I can only look for evidence that bakcs up my claim. Evolutionists are the same way. They look for evidence that backs up their claim.

I think that a God-guided evolution is possible, but unlikely. I think it's unlikely simply because the world had to be perfect when it was first created and then death and sin came thanks to Adam and Eve. For evolution to be real, there would have to be mistakes, mutations, and death in the first place. Me no likey that!

[artemis-lady-warrior]

Oops my bad. I didn't know you were a girl. ^^;

[Nurann]

Lol yeah guys, Rakshash has been a community member for quite a while. It's good to see her again

Just it's not every day you get asked to accurately represent your religion

Lol hence my reason for asking it

I was once involved in an awesome discussion regarding the principle that matter can't be created or destroyed. The idea was that our souls are energy that cannot die, hence the concept of an afterlife. Reincarnation I find interesting.

Now those are my favorite types of conversations! I'd like to hear how that one went some time.

Can I ask a question, Nurann? Do Wiccans believe in an 'end of the world' apocalypse type thing?

Not one that I've come across in the past 5 years. There are so many different groups and traditions and whatever, somebody might have something though. I get the feeling that a biblical-level apocolypse would be generally counter-productive to Everyone, but then again, nature being creative and destructive, neither good nor evil, I suppose the End of the World (biblical style) could be possible if the Lord and Lady felt so inclined. I just haven't heard any arguments as to why They would.

I think that a God-guided evolution is possible, but unlikely. I think it's unlikely simply because the world had to be perfect when it was first created and then death and sin came thanks to Adam and Eve. For evolution to be real, there would have to be mistakes, mutations, and death in the first place. Me no likey that!

;_; Oh yeah, that was another thing from my IE devoured post. Pardon me for nitpicking a little bit, so did the earth just materialize instantly and perfectly? I think what I remember from the little bit of the bible that I did read, it was 7 days of various steps to create Life, the Universe, and Everything, right? So on say, day 3, was Everything perfect yet? (Just trying to clarify here, sorry!) In the middle of those days, could it be possible that there were mini-steps God took to make things? I'm just musing, but for a Timeless Being, a million little mini-steps over a few thousand "years" as we've labeled them wouldn't seem like a whole lot, but to us down here experiencing those steps first-hand, maybe it would seem like a long time? I don't know, I'm just thinking in terms of building blocks. One of God's Laws of Physics seems to be that in order to create a complex structure, it needs to be built upwards from its most basic components.

Out of curiosity, when does the bible say that disease and mutation start, anyways? Was it the moment they got booted out of Eden?

Mmm, I'm just rambling now. Sorry! It's interesting to think about though....

[guruhamboy]

I would assume it was during the Fall.

I can't believe this is still going. I need to read through all of this and get up to date.

[Nurann]

Lol thanks guruhamboy, but could you expand on that for me please? What exactly do you mean by "the Fall?"

Lol have fun catching up! It gets hard to after a while.

[artemis-lady-warrior]

"The Fall" is a term used for when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and got kicked out of Eden.

[7Knight-Wolf]

;_; Oh yeah, that was another thing from my IE devoured post. Pardon me for nitpicking a little bit, so did the earth just materialize instantly and perfectly? I think what I remember from the little bit of the bible that I did read, it was 7 days of various steps to create Life, the Universe, and Everything, right? So on say, day 3, was Everything perfect yet? (Just trying to clarify here, sorry!) In the middle of those days, could it be possible that there were mini-steps God took to make things? I'm just musing, but for a Timeless Being, a million little mini-steps over a few thousand "years" as we've labeled them wouldn't seem like a whole lot, but to us down here experiencing those steps first-hand, maybe it would seem like a long time? I don't know, I'm just thinking in terms of building blocks. One of God's Laws of Physics seems to be that in order to create a complex structure, it needs to be built upwards from its most basic components.

Out of curiosity, when does the bible say that disease and mutation start, anyways? Was it the moment they got booted out of Eden?

Mmm, I'm just rambling now. Sorry! It's interesting to think about though....

Yes, it's very interesting to think about.

I don't pretend to know why God spread out the creation into days. I think that if he wanted to create things faster he could just speed up time and do it that way. That way He's still using basic compenents but he controls the speed.

I know this is completely unscientific, but one I believe one major reason that God created the world in seven days was to give us a structure to follow for later on, when our bodies would be imperfect. (He was planning ahead.) All humans need to work to keep healthy, and that's what we spend much of our time doing. But a good fraction of our time must also be used to rest and think and meditate and sleep--that's why God set aside a day for "resting." Just a thought. With that logic, the Sabbath and all that isn't about God demanding that we go to church. It's about making sure that we're getting healthy rest.

Anyway, I believe that creation was perfect with no animal death or pain until Adam and Eve sinned. Then God spoke the curses, or the consequences for man's wrongs. Because of what man and woman did, there would be parasites and diseases and the earth would be unhappy. God also told them that Eve's one great descendant (Jesus) would defeat evil.

And now I'm REALLY going to start rambling. Just a warning. You are about to see the WEIRD side of me.

I love talking about the creation story, and I was just reading about a particular facet of it in a book called the "The Shack." (EVERYBODY SHOULD READ THAT BOOK!) "The Shack" addresses some unusual questions about God, inlcuding the fact that he is neither male nor female. This brings to light the question, "if God isn't male, why did he come to earth in the form of a man? Why not a woman Jesus?"

According to some people, God wants a circle of relationship; he wants men and women to be equals. Eve was taken out of Adam, so it makes sense that the circle should continue and Jesus, a male, should be taken "out of Eve." If it was man-woman-woman pattern, it wouldn't be fair. So God made it a man-woman-man pattern. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with this, but then again it is hinted at in scripture I guess.

Well, I feel like I should say sorry for taking us off topic. On the other hand, this is a religious deabte thread, and my ramblings certainly count as religious.

____
P.S. Yay! Artemis is back!

[guruhamboy]

No need to apologise. All of the above was interesting to read through.

Back to creation - I'm assuming you interpret the Bible literally then? The most basic challenge to this that I can think of is the attributes given to God. He's supposadly omnipotent, so in theory there can be no real logic behind God creating the world in seven days (or periods of time, if you read the bible symbolically). I just think this is a contradiction, seeming that God is credited as creating the universe ex nihilo, and if He was truly all powerful, then there'd be no need to take his time, as He'd be able to create the best possible world with instant ease, since God is wholly good.

On a further note - there's two creation stories in the Bible. The fact that Eve was created out of Adam's rib just doesn't quite seem to be equal to me. Almost as if her creation was an afterthought, as she was made as God noticed Adam had no 'suitiable companion'. The man-woman-man pattern certainly is an interesting theory though.

PS - Still haven't read back yet. Ah well. Perhaps one day.

[Wonko The Sane]

"if God isn't male, why did he come to earth in the form of a man? Why not a woman Jesus?"

The reason why there wasn't a 'Daughter of God' was because women were so inferior during Jesus' stay here in Earth.

According to Gnostic teachings,Mary Magdalene was leader of the Deciples for a brief period of time before Peter became the leader and head of the Church.The reason why she wasn't permanet because Peter thought a woman is unfit to lead Jesus' mission,despite what Jesus taught her when He was still alive.

On a further note - there's two creation stories in the Bible. The fact that Eve was created out of Adam's rib just doesn't quite seem to be equal to me. Almost as if her creation was an afterthought, as she was made as God noticed Adam had no 'suitiable companion'. The man-woman-man pattern certainly is an interesting theory though.

According to Jewish Scripture,Adam had a wife before Eve named Lilth,who was dubbed a demon later in life.She wasn't created out of Adam's Rib but the same way Adam was created...but she refused to submit to Adam and be his wife so she called God's name and went off,never to be seen again.