The Future, and How It Changes

[VelociBerg]

Something's been puzzling me recently, and I am now asking the people of BWINT to help solve it. *puts thinking cap on*

The future. Is it set in stone, or not?

Megatron blew up a mountain that existed in the future, thanks to the Golden Disk giving him foreknowledge. Dinobot was able to tell that his death was imminent when he studied the discs. But were the discs only one path in the roadway to the future? Dinobot discovered his choices were his own, yet he still died--as was foretold.

Later, we have Optimus reading from the Covenant of Primus. In it, there are accurate descriptions of Megatron in his dragon form, the arrival of Tigerhawk and his elemental powers, and the destruction of the Predacon base. Also included are the Nemesis, descriptions of the Beast Wars, Optimus failing to stop Megatron in the Nemesis, and Dinobot 2's redemption.

Going off the Covenant of Primus, the timeline can't be altered. It foretold everything down to the letter, whereas the disc was more vague, leaving things up in the air unless action is taken.

I'm not going to say my own opinion on this until I can get a feel of what others think. So...what do ya'll think?

[Jagna]

okay...im goig to keep this simple *snorts but not on an omlette...im not allowed dairy today...*

to be fair, Dinobot's death was always imminent...duh...tht is the one thing in 'life' we can be sure of. we will all die one day, and if you believe in that sort of stuff move on to a higher plane of existence. so yes the disk was right about tht

thing is, if you find out something is going to happen in the future, and you try to alter it, the probability is that you will probably end up with the same results. ie if i found out my parents were goingto get me a barbie for xmas *shudders* and i kept trying to convince them tht tigatron is so much cooler (and healthier i might add...wait...what? ) then i might actualy alter their decision by annoying them and they'd get me a stupid barbie anyway *shudders again*...please understand tht was hypothetical.

but then again, without knowing what the future holds in store, we can in fact be the masters of our own destiny, as we would not actually know whats going to happen to us. apart from the knwlege that we are going to die. others may know, i.e. megatron, but dinobot faced his destiny knowing that he would die, but at the same time knowing that he could save the future

the whole thing with the ark is that history obviously intended for the interference to happen. the autobot shuttle, come on! if you watch hundreds of movies/tv shows, some one always goes back in time ti fix the mess theyv made or whatever, and you can always see some sort of trace of them in the past. take harry potter as an example. idiot saw himself! duh!

ahem....tell me ifyou dont know what i mean and ill try to explain it better. but thts my opinion...

did i say simple??

[VelociBerg]

Nah, it makes perfect sense. Now for the reply...

to be fair, Dinobot's death was always imminent...duh...tht is the one thing in 'life' we can be sure of. we will all die one day, and if you believe in that sort of stuff move on to a higher plane of existence. so yes the disk was right about tht

I think you're misunderstanding. Dinobot knew as well as we do that we're all going to die eventually. What bothered him was that the time for his death was NEAR. Not some ways off. Imagine if someone said you were going to die two days from now, there's nothing you can do to stop or prolong it. Hence Dinobot's dilemma. Besides, transformers can live exceedingly long times. Ravage was easily the oldest transformer in BW by a couple million years or so over all those younger whippersnappers! (Not counting the older bots like G1 Megs)

thing is, if you find out something is going to happen in the future, and you try to alter it, the probability is that you will probably end up with the same results. ie if i found out my parents were goingto get me a barbie for xmas *shudders* and i kept trying to convince them tht tigatron is so much cooler (and healthier i might add...wait...what? ) then i might actualy alter their decision by annoying them and they'd get me a stupid barbie anyway *shudders again*...please understand tht was hypothetical.

Yes, but the whole Megatron destroying early humans/Optimus Prime thing was about the fact that history could be changed, as shown by the mountain exploding.

"When the past alters the future alters with it! With the Golden Disk Megatron's power is...limitless!"

but then again, without knowing what the future holds in store, we can in fact be the masters of our own destiny, as we would not actually know whats going to happen to us. apart from the knwlege that we are going to die. others may know, i.e. megatron, but dinobot faced his destiny knowing that he would die, but at the same time knowing that he could save the future

This makes sense.

the whole thing with the ark is that history obviously intended for the interference to happen. the autobot shuttle, come on! if you watch hundreds of movies/tv shows, some one always goes back in time ti fix the mess theyv made or whatever, and you can always see some sort of trace of them in the past.

Yes, but I'm referring to the Covenant of Primus. It described events so clear that crystal would shatter. Hence my confusion. On one hand we have Megatron with the ability to change the future, yet on the other hand its like we're being told he never had that power all along, despite evidence to the contrary.

See why I'm confused?

[VelociBerg]

I think I have the answer.

Major events in time simply can't be altered. They are meant to happen, and goshdarnit they're gonna happen! On the other hand, things that really don't matter can be affected in the timestream.

Examples:

1) Megatron attempts to kill Optimus Prime. Even though there was a resulting timestorm, his spark was saved and things went back to normal, aka, Prime still lives.

2) The mountain destroyed by Rampage has no bearing at all, thus it is unimportant and can be removed without a hitch.

3) The proto-humans are an invaluable Autobot ally, thus Megatron's attack and Dinobot's sacrifice aided them in both development, as well as scattering them across the face of the earth.

4) Tigerhawk was stopped from destroying Megatron since this would have also altered the timestream in a major way when G1 Megs would go up in flames with BW Megs.

5) Megatron traveled back to kill Prime. Yet a major thorn in his side appeared with Primal and the Maximals. He can't even time travel without interference!

Also, the Golden Disks/Covenant of Primus are records depicting major events that can't be changed and WILL happen.

-Dinobot's death
-Various Vok stuff
-OOP failing to stop Dragon Megs in "Nemesis"
-The Beast Wars
-TM2 DB betraying Megs
-Tigerhawk
-Destruction of the Predacon base
-Tractor beam on the Ark

Going by this train of thought, G1 Megatron's plan is exceedingly brilliant. But doomed to failure from the get-go. Megatron's "limitless" power applies only to things that don't matter.

So. Megatron, Dinobot. The future is set in stone.

Any thoughts guys?

[Jagna]

i could swear thts what i wrote...tht no matter how u try to manipulate time if you know whats going to happen it will stil hapen. just slightly differently to how you expected. the outcome will be the same though wounnit?

[Starath]

*scratches head* Hmmm...

I have three different theories on how timelines themselves work. One of them is the Beast Wars Theory, and it works like this:

Time is one concrete, solid line. It cannot be altered because certain things were meant to happen. But can the future change? The Beast Wars as a whole was a fight so that it wouldn't change, the whole "in a war to save our own future" thing.

I'm not sure if the Beast Wars timeline couldn't be changed. It had the potential to. Megatron certainly tried it. Perhaps time has a way of resetting itself to what is Supposed To Be? In that case, the Maximals would have been the safety mechanism to put things back into the right timeline.

I could get into my other timeline theories but I'd need my notes. Yes, I wrote it all down at one point lol. I might have to amend my statements here since I may be remembering things wrong.

I do agree that it might be major events that HAVE to happen that can't be prevented. If that's the case, the Beast Wars itself HAD to happen for Beast Machines to take place, where the Maximals brought back organic potential from Earth back to Cybertron like Primus/The Oracle wanted.

Discussing timelines in general brings about the points of fate, destiny, and our choices made of own free will that decides our life. Say, if a given timeline was fixed and everything decided for us, do we have free will? That's another thing entirely.


--Starath

[bob skir]

there is somthing that puzzles me. If megatron succeded in destroying optimus prime then wouldn't megatron be destroyed as well. If you watch the transformer movie(80's cartoon movie) it was optimus's matrix that destroyed unicron but if optimus was destroyed then wouldn't cybertron be destroyed thus making BW megatron disappear as well?

[VelociBerg]

i could swear thts what i wrote...tht no matter how u try to manipulate time if you know whats going to happen it will stil hapen. just slightly differently to how you expected. the outcome will be the same though wounnit?

Well...not quite exactly...You wrote (bolded the parts that thusly make a difference):

thing is, if you find out something is going to happen in the future, and you try to alter it, the probability is that you will probably end up with the same results.

Whereas mine says that in no way, shape or fashion can it be altered at all.

I'm not sure if the Beast Wars timeline couldn't be changed. It had the potential to. Megatron certainly tried it. Perhaps time has a way of resetting itself to what is Supposed To Be? In that case, the Maximals would have been the safety mechanism to put things back into the right timeline.

Yes, this is what I was trying to say.

there is somthing that puzzles me. If megatron succeded in destroying optimus prime then wouldn't megatron be destroyed as well. If you watch the transformer movie(80's cartoon movie) it was optimus's matrix that destroyed unicron but if optimus was destroyed then wouldn't cybertron be destroyed thus making BW megatron disappear as well?

Well, isn't the whole plan one big gamble? A last-ditch attempt by G1 Megatron to win? Perhaps the Decepticons/Predacons found a way to win without the Matrix. (Key to Vector Sigma? A unified Cybertron under Decepticon rule, rather than the Cybertron split in half by civil war?) However, I recall all the Maximals/Maximal Protoforms being in agony while Megatron apparently stood unharmed.

My theory:

All the Maximals would fade first, as their ancestors would lose the Great War and thus cease to exist. Following this, the Predacons would fade as Unicron gobbled up their ancestors. The Maximals would fade first because their ancestors died first. The Predacons would die later.

[Unvereitletmann]

This is my humble opinion. You don't have to agree with me in any way.

I think personally that we are always owners of our destiny. However to each action we take there will be a reaction. So in that way although you are allowed to change whatever you want, even if you know about it, the future will be altered to that sort of reality dimension. This means that the future will re-construct from that event on. You might think future is an unalterable line, but that is because this is your reality. And you can't know any other without altering the future which we can't do (yet.... ha!).
Think about this for a moment, the Beast Wars timeline whas traced upon Megatron's golden disk theft. Though if somebody in Cybertron could've known the exact moves of the predacons they might be stopped. The reaction to that will be definitely that the Beast Wars never happened. An extended reaction would be, the normal development of Vok experiments, no Covenant of Primus, and the fact that maybe humans would have developed slower.
So in that manner Beast Wars was not "meant" to happen but it was an obvious reaction to some action taken in the past and so on.
If the Beast Wars never happened, meant only that, for example Optimus head was never destroyed, but it couldn't have stopped G1 from happening.

Well that's my point of view, hope you liked my twisted mind!

[Lyxwal]

Well, I may be brand spanking new here, but lemmie give it a shot!

First, lets look at the golden disks and dinobot. When Dinobot saw the mountain destroyed and the universe change, he knew right then and there that he was the master of his fate and that his choices are his own.

Now, you countered with the good idea that only events of irrelivance can be changed. I counter that because that is a realitive term. In the end, everything is doomed to end anyway, and if it doesn't, and it just keeps going on and on, then really, in a 10 followed by a trillion 0 years, EVERYTHING is of little importance when you add it all up.

However, on the flip side, consider this. The further you go back in time, the more devestating your actions would become. Four million years into the past, killing off a single proto human could annihalate civilazation as we know it! His children might not have been important, or even theirs, or so on for a thousand generations, but the fact is you are removing those one thousand generations which could have any number of consequences.

So really, all I did was try and debunk one theory, put up my own, and debunk that! And I didn't even really put up a theory at all yet! For the golden disks, I think they held a record of what may. The maximals faded because they would not have exsisted, while the predicons I think would not have changed as a universal paradox safe gaurd. They exsisted, and so because they were back in time and still exsisted, their forms at that moment in time were still there, even if they should have been different. Think butterfly effect, except instead of memories remaining, physical bodies remain.

Now, the covenant of Primus. I am going to hide behid a deity theory. Primus was for all intents and purposes and god! I think a god could have the ability to foretell mortal future! Maybe not his own, or even unicrons. But mortal prophesy could very well be a cake walk for Primus, but I could be wrong.

OOO! I just had a thought as I wrote this! What if the reason for the prophesy is because Primus, and maybe even unicron, exsist outside of time beyond mortal comprehension! Then prophesy is a snap, because you simply have to press your cosmic fast forward button!

Well, thats my two and a half cents.

[Jagna]

okeedokey then...

but think about just one small thing (whoever said the maximals would fade first)...

unless the decepticons were truly all evil as well as the predacon descendants....destroying optimus prime wouldnt erase ALL of autobot/decepticon life? sure he was a great leader but there mustv been others who fight even though they were losing (?)

i mean its not like prime is the grandfather of ALL maximals is it?!?!?!! creepy thought

niiice input here btw guys! and cudos to the noob! lol!


but okay the fading and attempted destruction of optimus prime HAD to happen in order to have the result it did in the end right? fixing the flux an all tht. all megs didnt forsee was him actually doing it and he didnt look at the disk as to whatthe consequenes mightv been if he had destroyed prime prior to db destroying it..if tht was possibe

speaking of which the mountain thing...it does raise questions about the future being set in stone...to keep ppl happy i say tht erosion or an earthquake had something to do with it in the future because, scientifically, in 4 million years the entire planet wouldv changed. ice ages, earthquakes volcanoes etc...tht mountain wouldve changed on its own and maybe megs just happened to speed it along


and which future anyway?

maybe he was looking at the mountain in only one million years! makes youthink just how long the future will acually last!

...

listen to us getting all philosophical...ow my head!

[Starath]

*giggles* Deep thoughts hurt my head too.....

Something that bugged me ALL THE TIME when I first saw the Agenda trilogy was that Megatron was so SURE that his changing the future wouldn't effect him. I yelled at him more than once, "Hey stupid, you're putting your own EXISTENCE in jeopardy!!!!"

In retrospect I don't think Megatron was sure he'd survive, but that he was simply willing to take that risk. I still think it was a stupid one, but okay, whatever. He was driven by ambition and the will to do anything to make the Decepticons win.

And granted, he would have removed the Autobots/Maximals from existence but without them history could have turned completely upside down. They wouldn't have been there to defeat Unicron, ect.

... Now that I think of it.... The "third" TF race, those descended from Unicron (as Tarantulas himself states) would have remained if the Autobots and Decepticons were removed from history and benefitted from it all. It's kind of like a conspiracy to remove those who oppose Unicron from history.

Ah, the 'more than one future' thing! I am familiar with that, though not in the 'how far in the future' context. Another of my Timeline Theories is called the Trunks Timeline Theory (from DBZ) that states: Time can branch out. When you go back in time and change an event you do not change the future you came from, but create an alternate reality that branches off into a new future dfferent from the intended timeline before the event changed.

... And I just realized that I mixed up my Beast Wars Timeline Theory with my other one, Theory #3. Um, yeah. One confusing thing at a time.

So if Megatron HAD changed the past, would it have changed HIS future, or created a new one?

My Beast Wars Timeline Theory is supposed to be this: Time is flexible. If you go back in time to change an event, it changes the future. Simple as that.

However, from what's being discussed here, I question whether the Beast Wars Timeline would work that way.

Ow, now MY head hurts. xD

--Starath

[VelociBerg]

Now, you countered with the good idea that only events of irrelivance can be changed. I counter that because that is a realitive term. In the end, everything is doomed to end anyway, and if it doesn't, and it just keeps going on and on, then really, in a 10 followed by a trillion 0 years, EVERYTHING is of little importance when you add it all up.

Not quite everything, as Starscream will float around for eternity. And Waspinator. Because there is no known way to kill him, either. He just gets blown up. (Possible descendant perhaps?)

However, on the flip side, consider this. The further you go back in time, the more devestating your actions would become. Four million years into the past, killing off a single proto human could annihalate civilazation as we know it! His children might not have been important, or even theirs, or so on for a thousand generations, but the fact is you are removing those one thousand generations which could have any number of consequences.

Have you seen the old Time Squad episode where they go back in time to help a caveman discover fire, kill a fly while there, and then zip to medieval times where flies were dragon-sized due to the resulting need for evolution? Following that death, they warped to the future to where flies evolved to rule the world?

So really, all I did was try and debunk one theory, put up my own, and debunk that! And I didn't even really put up a theory at all yet! For the golden disks, I think they held a record of what may. The maximals faded because they would not have exsisted, while the predicons I think would not have changed as a universal paradox safe gaurd. They exsisted, and so because they were back in time and still exsisted, their forms at that moment in time were still there, even if they should have been different. Think butterfly effect, except instead of memories remaining, physical bodies remain.

Then what about Unicron coming around with no Matrix to destroy him? The Decepticons would fade too, as they lack anything with sufficient power to even disable him, much less destroy his body for the perverse pleasure of making his head Cybertron's moon.

Now, the covenant of Primus. I am going to hide behid a deity theory. Primus was for all intents and purposes and god! I think a god could have the ability to foretell mortal future! Maybe not his own, or even unicrons. But mortal prophesy could very well be a cake walk for Primus, but I could be wrong.

...But is it mentioned anywhere that Primus himself actually wrote it? For all we know it could be named after him. If someone can verify this I will take this statement back.

OOO! I just had a thought as I wrote this! What if the reason for the prophesy is because Primus, and maybe even unicron, exsist outside of time beyond mortal comprehension! Then prophesy is a snap, because you simply have to press your cosmic fast forward button!

Well, thats my two and a half cents.

But they exist in time. They're just extra-dimensional. Unicron can travel throughout the universes while Primus is part of them all.

but think about just one small thing (whoever said the maximals would fade first)...

unless the decepticons were truly all evil as well as the predacon descendants....destroying optimus prime wouldnt erase ALL of autobot/decepticon life? sure he was a great leader but there mustv been others who fight even though they were losing (?)

...I said that. Prime's lack of presence would lead to a Decepticon victory. Which would in turn lead to Unicron's victory.

So if Megatron HAD changed the past, would it have changed HIS future, or created a new one?

...This means that somewhere out there, Beast Machines never happened!

speaking of which the mountain thing...it does raise questions about the future being set in stone...to keep ppl happy i say tht erosion or an earthquake had something to do with it in the future because, scientifically, in 4 million years the entire planet wouldv changed. ice ages, earthquakes volcanoes etc...tht mountain wouldve changed on its own and maybe megs just happened to speed it along

Possibly, except for this:

and which future anyway?

maybe he was looking at the mountain in only one million years! makes youthink just how long the future will acually last!

Did Megatron not say that the image was taken (I presume by the first Megatron) in the future? Since he referred to "one future", it means he intends to rewrite it, which is why I take it as during The Great War or just prior. When the mountain was destroyed, the image changed with it as G1 Megatron recorded a Rampage-destroyed mountain rather than a whole one.

Ow, now MY head hurts. xD

I hate time travel, there's always too many considerations.

[SilverfromOZ]

This sounds like a really fun thread, however I will rant and rave once I have read the entire thing (alas time has run out for now, but I'll try again tonight).

The important point that I need to make right now is that the proper way to travel through time is with a Delorian with a flux capacitor.

To be continued......

#cue Back to the Future overture# Baaaa baaa daaa baa baa baa baaaa baa baa baaaaaa!!!