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Phoenix
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Unread post by Phoenix »

Thanks for posting this. :) It helps to organize it like this to see what should be done more clearly.

If I may be so bold as to suggest that perhaps Primal should have a second in command in mind. I would very much so like to see someone with a 9.0 rank, especially since there is/will be a couple of 8.0s at the very least. President, vice president, everyone else so to speak.

I agree wholeheartedly that Dinobot should have a higher rank as well, since there's such a large amount of rank 6.0s and it just doesn't seem like Dinobot to be a 'follower' or 'underdog' or whatever you want to call it. This is an rpg and thus has many more characters to deal with than the cast from the show, meaning some of the OCs are bound to take on the roles of the canon characters from time to time.

I'm not entirely sure of Cheetor being rank 7 in season 2.. Dinobot and Rattrap should outrank him, I think.
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Unread post by Mystrea »

I agree that it doesn't seen right that Cheetor gets such a high rank. Dinobot having a higher rank is debatable. In some cases would have thought he would be the same rank as Rattrap. However his loayalties do shift from time to time so it really is a tricky one. I will be trying to push Ironclaw for a high rank later, probably in season. To go along with his character progression.
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Unread post by Alak »

OOP posted something relevant in the 5.5 topic which I will quote in here to help stir discussion:
The one and only... OOP wrote:I agree with Phoenix. They don't have to follow the silly toyline. Rhinox should probably be 9. Rattrap should be 8, and Orcariner should be promoted as well to 7 or 8. Dinobot, Whitegrazer, Valkyrie at 7. Feralnight, Frilla, Icebreaker, Saber-Fang, Airazor, Tigatron, Ironclaw at 6. Cheetor and Wintersong at 5. Aurora at 4. Just my thoughts on that judging by characters' progressions in our game.
OOP brings up a good point: the ranks I used for the canon characters have been taken from the toys. Hasbro designed the toys and their biographies, but it was Mainframe who designed the show and its characters. There's a considerable difference, and we'll even run into future problems since Depth Charge has a rank of 10... but does nothing to follow through on it. I'm all for changing canon ranks to better fit the show's representation. OOP is part of the staff, so I'm guessing we'd need Blazemane or NK to agree and make it a majority vote in order to re-sequence the Maximal (and possibly Predacon) hierarchy.
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WorpeX
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Unread post by WorpeX »

Alak wrote:OOP posted something relevant in the 5.5 topic which I will quote in here to help stir discussion:
The one and only... OOP wrote:I agree with Phoenix. They don't have to follow the silly toyline. Rhinox should probably be 9. Rattrap should be 8, and Orcariner should be promoted as well to 7 or 8. Dinobot, Whitegrazer, Valkyrie at 7. Feralnight, Frilla, Icebreaker, Saber-Fang, Airazor, Tigatron, Ironclaw at 6. Cheetor and Wintersong at 5. Aurora at 4. Just my thoughts on that judging by characters' progressions in our game.
OOP brings up a good point: the ranks I used for the canon characters have been taken from the toys. Hasbro designed the toys and their biographies, but it was Mainframe who designed the show and its characters. There's a considerable difference, and we'll even run into future problems since Depth Charge has a rank of 10... but does nothing to follow through on it. I'm all for changing canon ranks to better fit the show's representation. OOP is part of the staff, so I'm guessing we'd need Blazemane or NK to agree and make it a majority vote in order to re-sequence the Maximal (and possibly Predacon) hierarchy.
I agree, that ranking system makes much more sense.
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NaitoKage
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Unread post by NaitoKage »

I agree with what OOP posted for ranks.
Blazemane
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Unread post by Blazemane »

The ranks for the first season were established before many of the character had seen any use, so they had to be estimated by the character biographies alone. Now that the authors have shown their conceptions of their characters in actions,I do agree the ranks need some adjustment.
I agree with Phoenix. They don't have to follow the silly toyline. Rhinox should probably be 9. Rattrap should be 8, and Orcariner should be promoted as well to 7 or 8. Dinobot, Whitegrazer, Valkyrie at 7. Feralnight, Frilla, Icebreaker, Saber-Fang, Airazor, Tigatron, Ironclaw at 6. Cheetor and Wintersong at 5. Aurora at 4. Just my thoughts on that judging by characters' progressions in our game.
I agree with most of this, but I'm not sure about a few things. And while OOP and Naitokage being in agreement does make a majority vote, I feel should at least state my opinions.

Icebreaker, Saber-Fang: 6

I can see this for Icebreaker, thinking about the kind of character he's meant to be- supporting other soldiers on the field, acting rashly at times, etc. But he has become medic, engineer, survival expert, character-crisis-control and very effective warrior. Whether we could have predicted it or not, he is now the pinnacle of versatility for the Maximals. 6 doesn't feel right if we start handing that rank to Dinobot as well.

Saber-Fang was a former general, and that seems like it should impact her rank. But- and I don't mean this as an attack on Night Hunter's writing of her- there hasn't been that much in-game evidence of her former life. Generals tend to be elite military strategists, and possibly (I suppose not always) also particularly impressive in combat (at least impressive compared to members of their armies).

I understand Saber Fang's condition would get in the way of a lot of this. And I also know it can be hard, as a writer, to assert one's own character as being as good in the affairs of war as a general, especially when we as the group of players are paying careful attention to character balance.

So the way she is written is fine. However, so long as Saber Fang continues to run off away from the Maximals or to transform in battle and have to be neutralized (or if she were to transform and injure any of the Maximals), she at best, accomplishes a soldier's work, and at worst becomes a liability to the team- as she herself often bemoans, internally or externally.

6 could be fine. I'm kinda wondering about 5, though. I'd actually like to hear Night Hunter's opinion on this- what she thinks her character's rank should be.

Wintersong at 5. It's logical, given that she is often off on her own. But she's participated in more missions, I think, than Airazor or possible even Tigatron have, so her solitude doesn't seem to be effecting the team that much.

As for her admittedly getting beat up a lot... In-story, yes, that would point towards a lower rank. But I think it also ought to be considered that for as many fights she loses, she is incredibly persistent in throwing herself into the fray. Taking the opponent's shots- and attention- isn't glamorous of course, but there is something to be said for its strategic value. I prefer a 6 for her, but again, I can understand a 5.

Out-of-story, by the way, I think Wintersong gets hit as often as she does because Wintersong (the author I mean) is humble enough to let her character take the shots and allow other characters to look cool because they're pounding an opponent.

Going by the same logic of "battle willingness", Cheetor being a rank 6 also makes sense to me. Truth be told, I believe when I was first coming up with ranks, I based my conception of them on the fact that Cheetor was rank 6 on the toy bios (and Optimus was rank 10). 6, to me, has meant "semi-reliable, willing soldier."

Obviously, ranks are subjective. And there is, as has been mentioned, a discrepancy between toy-bio ranks and apparent-show-effectiveness. So again, if majority opinion is different than mine, I will defer to the majority's judgment.

Also, if we're going to specify rank 7 or 8 for Orcariner, I'm still feeling 7 would be better. I mean no offense to Alak. But we're going to say now that Rattrap is rank 8 (which I agree with), and he was an original member of the crew, and, as was mentioned, the one Optimus chose to lead the Maximals when he was abducted. I don't think Orcariner's quite there yet.
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Alak
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Unread post by Alak »

First of all, I'd had to say that I love the fact that Blazemane jumped into this discussion even if some of his opinions conflict with the other staff members. Rank isn't always brought up a lot, but with the crowd getting bigger and bigger, it has to be considered and taken seriously now. The more discussion we can generate the better it is for our RPG's structure. This is what I've gotten from what's been said thus far:

OOP

Optimus Primal = 10.0
Rhinox = 9.0
Rattrap = 8.0
Orcariner = 8.0 or 7.0
Dinobot = 7.0
Valkyrie = 7.0
Whitegrazer = 7.0
Airazor = 6.0
Feralnight = 6.0
Frilla = 6.0
Icebreaker = 6.0
Ironclaw = 6.0
Saber-fang = 6.0
Tigatron = 6.0
Cheetor = 5.0
Wintersong = 5.0
Aurora = 4.0

Arachnitron = No comment

NK

Agrees with OOP

Blazemane

Optimus Primal = 10.0
Rhinox = 9.0
Rattrap = 8.0
Dinobot = 7.0
Icebreaker = 7.0
Orcariner = 7.0
Valkyrie = 7.0
Whitegrazer = 7.0
Airazor = 6.0
Arachnitron = 6.0 (based on application thread)
Cheetor = 6.0
Feralnight = 6.0
Frilla = 6.0
Ironclaw = 6.0
Tigatron = 6.0
Vela = 6.0 (based on application thread)
Saber-fang = 6.0 or 5.0
Wintersong = 6.0 or 5.0
Aurora = 4.0


Also, is Venatrix still planning on posting in the RPG? She has an undisputed Rank 7 character who's led missions in the past.
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Wintersong
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Unread post by Wintersong »

With ranking I don't quite mind a 5 or 6 for my tiger OC since having her pretty much throw herself into the fray recklessly is part of how I have created and seen develop over the course of the RPG. Of course she was also aimed to just be a warrior and or soldier, nothing to reach a high ranking or have a thirst for glory so low ranking isn't much of a problem for me, and I react with what I can depending on the situation. If it means getting beat up well then she gets beat up though Winter has also started to come out of her solitary shell and growing more into a team player which I am aiming to show a bit more development in that for season 2.
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Night-Hunter
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Unread post by Night-Hunter »

Saber-Fang was a former general, and that seems like it should impact her rank. But- and I don't mean this as an attack on Night Hunter's writing of her- there hasn't been that much in-game evidence of her former life. Generals tend to be elite military strategists, and possibly (I suppose not always) also particularly impressive in combat (at least impressive compared to members of their armies).

I understand Saber Fang's condition would get in the way of a lot of this. And I also know it can be hard, as a writer, to assert one's own character as being as good in the affairs of war as a general, especially when we as the group of players are paying careful attention to character balance.

So the way she is written is fine. However, so long as Saber Fang continues to run off away from the Maximals or to transform in battle and have to be neutralized (or if she were to transform and injure any of the Maximals), she at best, accomplishes a soldier's work, and at worst becomes a liability to the team- as she herself often bemoans, internally or externally.

6 could be fine. I'm kinda wondering about 5, though. I'd actually like to hear Night Hunter's opinion on this- what she thinks her character's rank should be.
I'm cool with Saber's rank being a six, I plan to make her more involved with things during season two with the Maximal crew then she was in season one, and she won't be all brooding batman all the time. She would rather be a follower then a leader, but she would be willing to give Optimus and the other higher ups advice if needed.

But yes I'm fine with her rank going to a six
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Unread post by Blackrosefencer »

These are what my thoughts were regarding what to do with Arachnitron. In turn, it may lead you to a decision about what to do with Saber Fang as well.

I agree with what everyone has said about skill-set, growth and personal development adding in to the decision about a bot's rank. I also think maturity is important and also desire, for lack of a better word. What I mean is if the character has absolutely no desire to lead missions or step up in leadership roles, then they shouldn't be ranked high.

But something else I think is important that was not previously mentioned is the level of trust that the others put in that bot. I quote here from the Side Saga....
Icebreaker wrote: I'm fine with keeping Nemesis locked up for eternity for all I care.. but what are we going to do with Arachnitron? We can't exactly leave her unsupervised.. It'd be safest to keep her locked up in the brig as well as.. we tend to do that went someone's mental health is so dangerous.. but you're not likely to do that Optimus. So I'm guessing I will be taking guard duty?...... Alright.. But I can't play guard on two Maximals.. so who's taking up my old job? Whitegrazer?
Now, I'm assuming that the other bot that Icebreaker was referring to is Saber-Fang, but if I'm wrong, I apologize. That's just my conclusion based on skimming through the other current episode.

But anyway, the quote above led me to realize that if the other team members can't leave a particular bot unattended for fear of what they would do unsupervised (not to mention their intention of using restraints or sedation on them if they were to be uncontrollable), then, that sort of implies that the other team members trust in that bot is significantly lacking. A level 6 bot should not be constantly supervised, in my opinion. So if they can't leave Arachnitron by herself, then her rank should reflect that. I mean it certainly shouldn't be in the "drone" category, but any bot that they feel they need to supervise (Arachnitron, Aurora, and Saber-fang...am I right on that list or no?), should be at a lower level than the others.

I feel like Optimus is at a 10 not just because of his skill level for it or his willingness to be there, but also because that's the level of trust that the others put in him. If others seem to naturally follow the lead of a certain bot, like Rhinox or Rattrap or Orcariner, then that should be reflected in their ranks. Likewise, if the bots seem hesitant to follow the lead of a certain bot, then that should be evident from their rank too.

Also, just going on a rule of thumb from girl scouts. Any girl scout working with a younger girl scout has to be AT LEAST two years older than her. A similar logic applies here. I think it's self-evident that if you're going to be put in charge of some-bot, then you can't be the same ranking as that bot. So, a level 6 bot should not be in charge of watching a level 6 bot. So, if Whitegrazer and Icebreaker (two level 6 bots) are going to be in charge of watching Arachnitron and Saber-Fang, then Arach and Saber should not be a level 6 too. I mean, I know it's just pretend and all, but it should at least be a little realistic, right? I don't think it'd be realistic to put a level 6 in charge of another level 6.

That being said, I think Una is selling Whitegrazer a little short. She is very protective and caring of her fellow bots....I'm not so sure that's a level 5 characteristic. :wink:

Anyway, those are just my observations of the interactions I've been seeing in the storyline both of the show and here in the RPG.

In summary, a bot's rank is a highly complicated matter and it doesn't just rely on their skills and experience and personal growth, but also their personality, maturity, and the level of trust the others have for them. And as far as Arachnitron is concerned, skill wise, she has the potential to be at a higher ranking level, 6 or 7. Personality wise, a 6 seems fitting based on her desire to keep a lower profile and keep to herself. But since the others seem to be wary of her because of her condition, a 5 might actually be better.
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Unread post by WorpeX »

Nice update Alak! Keep up the good work!
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Unread post by Blazemane »

I think the transmetal pictures look really cool on this list.
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Alak
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Unread post by Alak »

Thanks, guys! I still have to add in new characters and then upload all the OCs new pictures. Those who aren't going Transmetal get to keep the same picture unless if the player wants a new one. While the ranks are mostly given out to Season 2 OCs (some need updated profiles I think), the staff here should probably discuss the canon ranks for the new season. We've had some confusions in Season 1, so if we can get this out of the way now it'd be awesome.
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Optimal Optimus Primal
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Unread post by Optimal Optimus Primal »

Great update for Season 2, Alak!

I would like to point out that I no longer seem to have contact with the person who wanted to play Quickstrike, so I'm putting him up for grabs. I'm also sorry to announce that Tor had PMed me a while back saying that she could not play Rampage. She could if we really needed her to, but it would only be temporary since she believes she would not be able to keep up. I thought I'd save her the trouble and just find someone who had the time for X on a more permanent basis. So there you go. Anyone interested in Quickstrike or Rampage?

As for the ranks, I'm afraid I've forgotten where we were getting stuck/confused with. Can I get a quick rundown on that, please? Thank you.
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Alak
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Unread post by Alak »

The issue with Season 1 ranks was that some canon characters did not have rank stats that appeared to represent how their de facto authority (i.e.- Rhinox should be higher than everyone else aside from Optimus). On the other hand, characters like Cheetor seemed to be a bit too high. We also wondered if the current ranking system was elaborate enough since nearly everyone has a 6. Who knows where that number came from, but it seems that is the average for a Beast Wars rank.

With Season 2, we have to figure out how ranks will change with the new canon characters. Airazor and Tigatron especially need re-evaluation due to their survival. Just things like that could use addressing.
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