Religious Debate Thread

[Blazemane]

I have faith that you and the others on this forum exist. Does that make this forum a religion?

For all I know you could simply be a highly advanced form of Spam Bot designed and built to pass the turing test on every level and I would be none the wiser. It takes a leap of faith to believe that you are a human being sitting at a computer at some point on this vast interweb.

Believe you or anyone else on this forum are humans does not make this forum a religion.

Well then, by our definition... yes. although that's a very special case. Just how much faith does it really take to say I'm not a turing program?

Not much. I would dare say it takes little to no faith. It almost makes it a fact. But then... we don't know if space is really just an illusion, and the landing on the moon and all the launch missions weren't just a hoax.

But I mean, come on... Of course there's space. I've never been there, so everything I've been educated on my life which would tell me space exists (even photosynthesis, to say there really is a sun), could be a lie. But how much faith does it take to believe that? Not much.

But you make a very valid point. Indeed it takes faith. And on that account, it's all that 7knight means. He wasn't saying it was really a religion. He was saying it takes faith.

In all honesty, it takes so much more faith to believe in evolution than to say I'm not a turing program. It takes so much more faith to believe in evolution that to say space is real.

Which puts evolution even closer to the religious side. But like, I said, we haven't claimed it as a real religion. But undeinably a faith.

[artemis-lady-warrior]

let me correct you on something. At one point in time people lived a lot longer. You want to know why? Because there was more moister and stuff in the air and no deserts and bad stuff that could age your skin. You seem to have forgotten that part.

Why are you picking on me? Why you calling us biased? Evoultionists are just as biased if not worse and I still think Mr. Dawkins is a jerk saying such things about people believing in creation. I don't have anything against atheists or people who believe evolution is real but I do not like people calling other people stupid for it or insane.

Why am i not quoting you, you might ask? Because it will take me too long.
What the heck? cut it out already! How would you know if they are or not? Have you ever met them? Just because they mess up something slightly doesn't mean anything. The nasty atheists do that all the time. They call people like me brainwashed. I am NOT brainwashed! \

I'm not going to talk about the flood anymore because you keep on talking about stupid salt water. Let me ask you this. Water heads down river except for the Nile. Some of this water comes from rain.
Why is it that rivers or other bodies of water that are fresh water start at one salty body of water and end at another yet the water in between these two salty points is never salty itself? How does it become fresh when it enters the river?

For my question about fossiles I was referring to the fact that soem people found a "modern" looking bird in the same fossile table as dinosaurs. Ugh. sheesh.


Plus there's no proof whatsoever that the earth was as hot as venus.

Also God put the moon where it is. It didn't just wander into orbit.

Can you stop with this billions of years stuff? and mars still has an atmosphere it's just thin. Life cannot come from heat! What in the world are you talking about? You cannot get something living from something non living. That's like saying I can make a rock sprout leaves.

You are aware that Intelligent design and creationism are two different things aren't you?

I have to quote this part though.

Even Furthermore, Creationist scientists are guilty of what you ascribe to Darwin. They take their answers from the bible and then look for evidence in nature to support it, when instead they should be looking for evidence that can only be explained by the biblical account and not by any scientific proces

you are aware that what you just said here sounds like you're saying that they shouldn't use science to prove what they are saying, aren't you?

BTW if I sound like I'm losing it here or acting bratty in any way it's because I'm at a certain point in the month now and I'm in a very testy mood because of it. If I blow up it's not my fault. I'm trying my best to keep it in check.

Also at one point you misquoted me. Please don't ever do that again.

[Blazemane]

Oh, last thing. Hey Blazemane, why do you think God told you not to play video games? I'm careful about games, but there are several I enjoy like Harvest Moon, Spyro, and Kingdom Hearts.

My best estimate? My obsession with video games. I'd wake up, disregard breakfast, go to the basement, and play. In one extreme case, I missed the opening of my brother's birthday presents one morning because I was completely unaware that it was happening while I was playing.

And I would play for hours and hours and hours. And when my siblings wanted a turn, I would wait and wait and wait, and take the game at the next available opportunity.

You mentioned materialistic gods earlier. Video games were mine.

At least, that's the reason I suspect I was told. I was addicted to them. Unfortunately, it actually took me a while to listen, because I would excuse away "Just one hour a day", or such "limits" like that (which I would often, addictedly, disregard). But yes, I'm done now. God got through to me.

A hundred years? That's quite some time. Given that life expectancies only started going up as medical science started getting better and better at it's job, how is it that Noah lived past 121 years of age thousands of years ago? Assuming he was 21 when he started building the ark, that is.

People before the flood lived long periods of time. The oldest was Methuselah:

Genesis 5: 21-27 "21 When Enoch had lived 65 years, he became the father of Methuselah. 22 And after he became the father of Methuselah, Enoch walked with God 300 years and had other sons and daughters. 23 Altogether, Enoch lived 365 years. 24 Enoch walked with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

25 When Methuselah had lived 187 years, he became the father of Lamech. 26 And after he became the father of Lamech, Methuselah lived 782 years and had other sons and daughters. 27 Altogether, Methuselah lived 969 years, and then he died."

Now, you don't agree with the Bible, but that's a different matter entirely. My point is that the Bible provides no contradiction to life expectancy when speaking of Noah waiting for 100 years.

[Beastbot]

I dont agree with everything written on Reasons to Believe but they certainly seem to have a more scientific approach to ID then most ID proponents seem to have, such as actually submitting scientific papers instead of playing politics.

ID proponents have submitted plenty of scientific papers. However, given that the evolutionists control mainstream science, they are always rejected and blacklisted from publishing in scientific journals. Another problem I have with evolutionists (in general, there are of course exceptions).

[artemis-lady-warrior]

I dont agree with everything written on Reasons to Believe but they certainly seem to have a more scientific approach to ID then most ID proponents seem to have, such as actually submitting scientific papers instead of playing politics.

ID proponents have submitted plenty of scientific papers. However, given that the evolutionists control mainstream science, they are always rejected and blacklisted from publishing in scientific journals. Another problem I have with evolutionists (in general, there are of course exceptions).

Plus there's the fact that anyone who wrote anything that disagreed with Evolution was laughed at in the media.

-_- such is the way of the biased media.

[Razorclaw]

They say that media is not supposed to have an oppinion...

One of the biggest lies I've ever heard!

[artemis-lady-warrior]

you got that right. The media could never be called "Old reliable" cuz it sucks. If I wanna find out the truth about something I'll find out the story myself.

[Nurann]

First off Blazemane, Beastbot – thank you for posting all of that on page 8! That was slagging AMAZING. Razor, you always post some impressive arguments, so thank you to you as well.

I can't possible begin to address everything that's been said, but I'll try and say a few things on that which stood out for me:

The other religions say… ah, maybe you can make it. Depends on how good you were. Unfortunately, none of us are good.

What about Buddhism? If one works hard over the course of many lifetimes, one will attain "Nirvana," a state of higher being in which one no longer needs to return to mortality. One becomes free of suffering and worldly need. It's work, yes, but it means taking some responsibility for one's own enlightenment. It's one thing that bugs me about the Abrahamic faiths – at first glance, it looks like a lot of passing off of responsibility. Yes, there's sin, but if I'm sorry God will forgive me no stings attached. Or if I do something really really really bad, I can pass it off as "the devil made me do it." I get in to Heaven based on faith alone; I don't really have to work for it, so who says I actually have to be good if Jesus loves me anyways? It just irks me. If I'm going to be given the ultimate reward, I'd rather earn it and I know I earned it.

Besides, something about eternal life sounds sort of… boring? Call me a sucker for punishment, but I like learning. Staying in one place forever, never getting to experience something new, never getting to drink another cup of tea… well, all I can say is if it turns out you're all right and we're all wrong, I sure hope there's tea for good behaviour Down South.

To Whom it May Concern; An Educational Challenge

On that note, I'd like to pose a bit of a challenge. Every religion has stereotypes associated with it. One could read, but texts don't include the personal views that make the religion something tangible to its practitioners. We're an international community, thus we reasonably would have multiple religions represented here. This debate seems to be a chance for us to learn about each other above all else, so my challenge is this:
Each person who has a religion not previously mentioned, post little known facts and fictions about your faith.

For example, I'm Wiccan. Wicca is a polytheistic, neo-pagan, nature-based religion which has roots in pre-Christian European religions. I'm generalizing, but that's the gist of it.

Fiction: Wicca/ Paganism/ Witchcraft/ the Craft/ etc. is associated with devil worship, animal sacrifices, baby eating, curses, and the like.
Fact: Wicca has nothing to do with the devil. The common belief is that giving evil a name gives it power over you, so it just simply isn't done. Humans are responsible for their own good or bad behaviour, and based on something called the Rule of Three, one is punished or rewarded by the Universe/Creator by a three-fold factor. Therefore anything that harms another living being will be reflected on the individual three times as severely as what was sent out. Makes curses and baby eating a REALLY stupid idea. This can apply within one lifetime, or it can cross into several depending on when The Powers That Be determine it's best to deliver.
Fact: Wiccans don't believe in a Heaven or Hell. Instead, everyone (and I mean everyone) goes to the Summerland when they cross over for a period of rest and reflection. Then, if one is so willing, one may return to mortality to learn a new cosmic lesson or "Mystery." This is also known as "reincarnation." Personally, after that I like the Buddhist's view of Nirvana. Not everyone might. That being said;
Fact: Wicca, like Christianity, has many branches with some common elements between each "tradition." I'm an Eclectic Solitary, which means I practice by myself and am open to practices from any faith or tradition. Currently I include Celtic, Scandinavian, Shinto, and Native American practices in my work.

There are others, and I invite people to ask questions. I will do the same of them.
Basically, go like that around the community. I really think we can learn a lot from each other, and maybe even clear up some of the confusion that may be causing tension in the debate. Most importantly, have fun!

Back on topic..

Who decides what "should" be in the atmosphere and what shouldn't?

Mmm, just throwing it out there, but our lungs? Ever get an asthma attack from smog? Yeah, smoke from a forest fire will do it too, but somehow that brown line of cloud on the horizon just… doesn't seem like it should be there. Maybe I am wrong, but I find it hard to believe that when you see a picture of a major city covered in brown haze, that we as a race didn't completely cause it. *shrug* There's evidence both ways, so I'm willing to set that one aside for now.

Right on all counts except for the moons rotation. It's tidally locked with the earth, it's rotational period is two weeks long so it always presents the same face to the earth. When the moon is dark in the sky, the opposite side is experiencing daylight

Really? I thought that it always shows the same face because it didn't rotate on its axis, and that when it's dark it's because it's being blocked by Earth's shadow. Am I misunderstanding something?

It was a joke on my part

Oh lol sorry! I missed that because my mind was stuck on "wait, they're heat based….?" Nevermind!

Artemis... Two hours ago I was going to say something, but on second thought I don't think I will. I acknowledge you're feeling under the weather, so I will get back to you in a week when you've cooled down.

ID proponents have submitted plenty of scientific papers. However, given that the evolutionists control mainstream science, they are always rejected and blacklisted from publishing in scientific journals. Another problem I have with evolutionists (in general, there are of course exceptions).

Yes, admittedly, they do slag like that. Ex. every time I go to write a paper I find twice as much information trying to disprove holistic practices than prove because it's not mainstream. Science does that to be spiteful, even though the scientific community may claim it's unbiased. It sucks, and they really should own up to it.

Whoo! Tea break! Lol

[Blazemane]

What about Buddhism? If one works hard over the course of many lifetimes, one will attain "Nirvana," a state of higher being in which one no longer needs to return to mortality. One becomes free of suffering and worldly need. It's work, yes, but it means taking some responsibility for one's own enlightenment. It's one thing that bugs me about the Abrahamic faiths – at first glance, it looks like a lot of passing off of responsibility. Yes, there's sin, but if I'm sorry God will forgive me no stings attached. Or if I do something really really really bad, I can pass it off as "the devil made me do it." I get in to Heaven based on faith alone; I don't really have to work for it, so who says I actually have to be good if Jesus loves me anyways? It just irks me. If I'm going to be given the ultimate reward, I'd rather earn it and I know I earned it.

Besides, something about eternal life sounds sort of… boring? Call me a sucker for punishment, but I like learning. Staying in one place forever, never getting to experience something new, never getting to drink another cup of tea… well, all I can say is if it turns out you're all right and we're all wrong, I sure hope there's tea for good behaviour Down South.

Thank you for your candor. Now, do you notice though, that nirvana is again, based on our own goodness? We work our way to nirvana, and at some point, we'll become so good, we'll actually hit it. But there seems to be a problem. Nobody has ever died perfect. The older we get, the wiser. But nobody has ever become that wise.

In this way, it still seems quite illogical to me.

As for heaven, I know exactly, EXACTLY what you are talking about. It's something I often consider. Well, for one thing, the Bible mentions God making us mansions, and that there will be streets of gold. Why would there be streets without walkers? And besides, even if we spent our whole time praising God...

What is art to you Nurann? Isn't there something you perceive in life which sometimes you can observe and just go "Wow". Be enthralled with it.

If God is indeed real, what can ever possibly be more awe-inspiring than Him? We couldn't be bored. We would always be learning more and more things about God, and the more and more we would learn, the more we would realize we could never learn enough. We'd realize just how little we've touched upon the realization of God's majesty.

We would appreciate it. If learning is what you seek, heaven of all places, would be the greatest. In Revelations, there are creatures which do nothing but proclaim "Holy, Holy, Holy". Are they bored? No. They are enthralled. But how could they be? They've been praising God for so long. It can be suspected however, that the more time they spend praising Him, the more they learn of His perfection and glory.

Undoubtedly, it would be the most humbling learning experience of all time to stand in heaven before God, and realize just how little we know.

[Nurann]

Nobody has ever died perfect. The older we get, the wiser. But nobody has ever become that wise.

It's over the course of many lifetimes, Blazemane. That's why it's so... incomprehensible. And amazingly mind blowing. We're so stuck in the here and now, what came before and what came after our conciousness just simply does not compute. Have you ever just known something without knowing where you learned it? Some peice of history that you later found out held true to your vision of it? It's an amazing feeling. I feel it every time I do energy work - nobody ever taught me that. I carried it with me into this life. I knew how to do it when I was a kid, but I didn't find out later exactly what it was called or the details behind it. I just already knew. How?

God making us mansions, and that there will be streets of gold.

Seems kind of late in the game to be doting on material things...? *shrug* If that's how you see it, cool. I like shiney. I can deal with shiney. If you can deal with shiney, then we're all good.

Isn't there something you perceive in life which sometimes you can observe and just go "Wow". Be enthralled with it.

Yeah; nature. Hence the wand-waving, tree-hugging life path. I get to experience awe, and know that it's only one small peice of the Whole. That there will always be more, in this life and the next. I'm young, I admit it. I've got a long ways to go and frankly I'm looking forward to every minute of it.

We would always be learning more and more things about God, and the more and more we would learn, the more we would realize we could never learn enough. We'd realize just how little we've touched upon the realization of God's majesty.

What about yourself? If God made you, why? Why are you so special? Aren't you curious as to why He made you in the first place? Why would God make you just to worship Him? Isn't He above being selfish? In that case, couldn't He have made you for some other reason? I'd like to find out why I'm around, but realism states that I'm only going to live to be about 100. You said yourself nobody dies being that wise. So what's a little extra time around here to find out?

For that matter, if God is everything, what's so wrong with learning about, well, everything? Every aspect of the universe is a part of the Creator, and some things you can only learn by experiencing them first hand. Like... getting really, REALLY drunk (for you adults out there) for the first time. Until you've experienced it first hand, you can't possibly know what it's like. That's the Mysteries. They're a part of that Everything. And it can't all be done in one life time, therefore why not go through several? And then after that, who knows?

Nirvana could very well be what you mentioned - learning about Creator's majesty on a whole new level. But why not clean house on the knowledge available down here first for good measure?

I'm not saying you're wrong. You could very well be completely right and I'll be eating my words come time. I'm just offering another perspective for consideration, and why I feel Christianity is illogical. Same as why you see evolution as illogical.

'Cuz if our only reason to exist is to worship God.... why?

[Beastbot]

Besides, something about eternal life sounds sort of… boring? Call me a sucker for punishment, but I like learning. Staying in one place forever, never getting to experience something new, never getting to drink another cup of tea… well, all I can say is if it turns out you're all right and we're all wrong, I sure hope there's tea for good behaviour Down South.

I think you're saying that because you're equating Heaven to, essentially, a vacation to the Bahamas or something. Heaven is something beyond our comprehension or understanding, you can't really say it's boring without knowing what it is.

Mmm, just throwing it out there, but our lungs? Ever get an asthma attack from smog? Yeah, smoke from a forest fire will do it too, but somehow that brown line of cloud on the horizon just… doesn't seem like it should be there. Maybe I am wrong, but I find it hard to believe that when you see a picture of a major city covered in brown haze, that we as a race didn't completely cause it. *shrug* There's evidence both ways, so I'm willing to set that one aside for now.

People get asthma attacks from natural things all the time, too. For example, there's a type of tree that's particularly pervasive around El Paso. There is a SERIOUS movement down there to actually eliminate the tree species completely, because its pollen is so strong it drives the people in the area crazy during certain times of the year, VERY few people do not react to it. It's caused quite a few deaths because of asthma-like attacks from its pollen.
However, believe it or not, smog is, for the most part, naturally produced. The reason it hangs out around cities most often is because animals, including us humans-- which, of course, are particularly densely populated in cities-- breathe out gases and these combine with the chemicals certain types of trees to produce that particular brand of smog, but some trees produce it regardless of human contributions. I'm sure you've heard of the Great Smoky Mountains-- well, that's smog, not smoke.
Want less smog? Cut down more trees. I'm dead serious here.
(In case you're curious, I learned this info by reading the well-researched book "Eco-Freaks: Environmentalism is Hazardous to Your Health!" by John Berlau. Take it or leave it.)

Really? I thought that it always shows the same face because it didn't rotate on its axis, and that when it's dark it's because it's being blocked by Earth's shadow. Am I misunderstanding something?

Yes, Razor One is right on this. The moon is tidally locked to the Earth, it rotates at the exact same speed that it revolves around the Earth so the same side is always facing us. It actually happens quite a lot in our solar system. Something to do with gravity and physics, I forget the exact explanation why.
Seriously, next time you get a chance to, look at the moon and compare. If it never rotated, than the features on the face of the moon would be in different places when it's a half-moon compared to when it's a full moon. But the features are always in the same spot, whether it's a quarter-moon, half-moon, or full-moon.

[7Knight-Wolf]

Boy do I have a lot of repsonding to do!

Beastbot, I'm sorry I misunderstood you about your beliefs. Also, what you said about why does it matter how the world was created... well, it doesn't effect our salvation but it makes us doubt the Bible...

Whoever made the point about everybody being related to each other, (Jagna?) Good point. We all share this world and we all have a few things in common. If men have things in common with monkeys, it doesn't mean we used to be monkeys.

The neanderthal man was proven to be human, just a human with a few unusual attributes. Sapiens Homo has been called a mistake by more than a few evolutionists.

Razor one, you have good arguments about the Flood. I'd be a bit gentler though in the wording--it sounds like you're trying to make us believe what you want instead of just stating your faith. Just saying.

And about faith--evolution requires a whole lot of faith. That's what I meant by it being a religion. Evolution is a faith. and yes, this forum requires faith too.

Some of your Flood arguments sound unbelievable to me. You have to remember that everything was different before the flood. For all we know the core of the earth might not have been as hot as it is now. And even if it was probablt that Noah would be "roatsed alive," there's the theological side of this too. The ark might have been a miracle. In fact the Bible makes a point of saying that God protected Noah. That means protecting him against the elements too.

And by the way, there are plenty of other amazing rocks that attest to the flood. Like the Three Sisters in Australia, for example.

Razor, just because you don't abuse evolution dioesn't mean that people like Stalin didn't. Hitler was a big fan of evolution too, because it proposed "survival of the fittest," vindicating his right to destroy other races. Err...that just makes me sick!!!

Darwin was very much influenced by his grandfather. Darwin's grandafther was dead by the time he was born, you mentioned. Well, his grandfather actually wrote a book containing VERY materialistic ideas which undoubtedly inspired Darwin. Also, you can be inspired by somebody's beliefs even when they're dead. George Wahsington is dead, but I feel inspired by many of the things he said and did.

Evolutionists are biased. Are creationists biased? Absoultely. If you care to read an earlier post, I pointed out that the physical evidence around us is always the same, but it depends on how we interpret it according to our beliefs. Darwin judged by his own convictions and inspiration from his grandfather to find evolution evidence. Creationists judge by the Bible and inspiration from God to come up with creation evidence. No matter what argument you present, some prominent creationist will always have an alternate way of interpretting the data. And vice versa.

Darn it, who was it that asked that great question: "Why did God create us?" Was it Nuran? I'm too lazy to quote everybody (and my computer's too slow) so I'm repsonding without quotations. Well, I believe that God created us to live in relationship with Him. Being the spirit of love itself, God likes lots of friends! And the more we learn and the more we grow, the more we have to share with Him.

You know one thing I really love about Beast Machines? Well the writers may have totally screwed up Silverbolt, but they got one very interesting thing correct. One the final episode of Beast Machines, Optimus explains what the purpose of a Transformer serving the Matrix is. Call me crazy, but when I listened to him it sounded remarkeably like the definition of what a Christain life should be. Watch it for yourself.

Lastly, I'd like to repsond to the comment about "learning about EVERYTHING." The example you used was getting drunk. Well, God does want us to learn and experience things. But he doesn't want us to get hurt. Getting drunk, doing drugs, and being, er, physically inappropriate can be bad for our health. Of course, we could try those things if we want to and we would hopefully learn not to do it again. But God gives us warnings for own good to avoid certain things. And the main reason I don't recommend getting drunk just to see what it's like is this--trials and new experiences will come to you whether or not you go looking for them. So why bother going something stupid on purpose when you know that you're going to run into plenty of stupid things quite by accident?

[Blazemane]

It's over the course of many lifetimes, Blazemane. That's why it's so... incomprehensible.

I'd like to find out why I'm around, but realism states that I'm only going to live to be about 100.

I get to experience awe, and know that it's only one small peice of the Whole. That there will always be more, in this life and the next.

I'm kinda' confused where you're drawing the line between these two ideas. Maybe by 100 years, you mean only this life. But then, you seem to be indicating that knowledge doesn't get kept between life times (hence, "I'd like to find out, but I'll only be here 100 years").

So you don't believe in nirvana? Do you believe in another life?

Have you ever just known something without knowing where you learned it?

The closest I ever come to this is when I feel God. Like... when something, unexplainable with words, presents itself, and shows me something, and I have to say "Wow, yeah- God is in this." Music has a way of doing this for me. Also, thinking over certain concepts enough can bring about a thematic resonance where I learn a feeling rather than an explainable fact.

Seems kind of late in the game to be doting on material things...? *shrug* If that's how you see it, cool. I like shiney. I can deal with shiney. If you can deal with shiney, then we're all good.

Well, I kinda' think when we stand in God's presence, we won't worry so much about the streets of gold. Materialistic rareities would not be the focus of heaven, it would really just be another manifestation of God's glory. Where else but God's land would we find golden streets?

Yeah; nature. Hence the wand-waving, tree-hugging life path. I get to experience awe, and know that it's only one small peice of the Whole.

Again, I hear you. Nature is amazing. God is an artist, and the whole universe is where he paints. I don't think it can be called anything but amazing.

What about yourself? If God made you, why? Why are you so special? Aren't you curious as to why He made you in the first place? Why would God make you just to worship Him? Isn't He above being selfish? In that case, couldn't He have made you for some other reason? I'd like to find out why I'm around, but realism states that I'm only going to live to be about 100. You said yourself nobody dies being that wise. So what's a little extra time around here to find out?

For that matter, if God is everything, what's so wrong with learning about, well, everything? Every aspect of the universe is a part of the Creator, and some things you can only learn by experiencing them first hand. Like... getting really, REALLY drunk (for you adults out there) for the first time. Until you've experienced it first hand, you can't possibly know what it's like. That's the Mysteries. They're a part of that Everything. And it can't all be done in one life time, therefore why not go through several? And then after that, who knows?

Nirvana could very well be what you mentioned - learning about Creator's majesty on a whole new level. But why not clean house on the knowledge available down here first for good measure?

I'm not saying you're wrong. You could very well be completely right and I'll be eating my words come time. I'm just offering another perspective for consideration, and why I feel Christianity is illogical. Same as why you see evolution as illogical.

'Cuz if our only reason to exist is to worship God.... why?

First of all, God is above selfishness. God didn't make us just to give Him lip service. If He wanted just that, would it not have been so much simpler for Him to just make us say "Holy, Holy, Holy" all day, without basis? I may appear to contradict now the example I brought up with the creatures in Revelations. Except, they aren't made as robots. Otherwise, there would be no meaning behind their words. They are simply enthralled with His awe-inspiring nature.

Am I curious to know why He made me? No. Because I already know the answer (if I didn't know the answer, I would be curious). The Bible pretty clearly dictates that our purpose for life is love. God made us to love Him, and to love one another. But before this seems too one sided, it should most importantly be noticed that God loves us. God gives us a choice. We can follow Him (love Him), or we can disregard Him. And those who do love Him are by no means robots saying "Holy, Holy, Holy" all day, because we make the choice to do so.

We are then provided a purpose for life. We are actually loved. And we get to love. What other purpose could actually fulfill? We've been talking about learning things. But I never said learning was the most important thing in our lives. For without a use for our knowledge, what is knowledge? It's useless facts stored away. Information we don't trully need, and which we gather just so we can have it.

Love gives us a purpose for our knowledge. We know about God. We know about righteousness, and beauty. Then we put that into effect. We devote all we can towards our love for God and one another.

And again, what is worship without love? Robotic. Words without meaning just to hear oursleves talk. It only has a purpose when the words mean something to both us, and He Who hears the words. And what gives the words meaning? What gives the words feeling? Why should we say them?

Only the love behind them. Love is the answer to all fulfillment and joy. Do you think anyone could actually make it in this world without it?

And by the way, if we wish to talk about the nuances of love and worship, loving God and one another is worship. Whenever we follow where God leads us, our lives become a living worship to Him.

Now, you ask, what's so wrong about learning about everything? Did I ever say something was? I mean, maybe there are a few subjects, which just for the safety of my walk with God, I would rather not study into- for example... necromancy, or even just reading an interesting piece of fiction which really wasn't a healthy thing to read.

But I see what you're saying. Nothing is wrong with studying nature, and the universe, and theology, or even just mathematics. It's all God's work anyways.

If I ever said otherwise, please point it out to me, so I can see where I'm going wrong here. I did say this:

Undoubtedly, it would be the most humbling learning experience of all time to stand in heaven before God, and realize just how little we know.

But that isn't all we can learn, especially since, for goodness sake, we're not even in heaven yet. We don't even have the opportunity to learn
those lessons. Of course we should learn what we can down here. Where else are we going to learn things from right now? We are here and only here.

EDIT: Before anyone replied. Spelling error. Edit 2: Before anyone replied. Another detail added.

[Nurann]

Oooh boy, lol I guess I've been about as clear as mud lately, haven't I? Let me see if I can clarify what I meant on a few things….

I think you're saying that because you're equating Heaven to, essentially, a vacation to the Bahamas or something. Heaven is something beyond our comprehension or understanding, you can't really say it's boring without knowing what it is.

I'm sorry Beastbot, I was actually trying to sound philosophical and humorous at the same time. It didn't work; my bad. Part of that was that anyone I've spent a great deal of time with knows I'm freakin' ADDICTED to tea. A piece of wisdom I was given lately; if one has to explain a joke, it's not funny. I guess I just learned that one the hard way.

The reason it hangs out around cities most often is because animals, including us humans-- which, of course, are particularly densely populated in cities-- breathe out gases and these combine with the chemicals certain types of trees to produce that particular brand of smog, but some trees produce it regardless of human contributions.

Do you mind if I ask what kind of tree it is? My city has a population of over 1 million now, and a literal forest running through it yet our smog isn't that bad yet. I'm curious now if it's because we don't have that species of tree? However, either way I will certainly reflect on what you've said and research it if possible.

Yes, Razor One is right on this.

Ah, I stand corrected. Thank you.

Lastly, I'd like to repsond to the comment about "learning about EVERYTHING." The example you used was getting drunk. Well, God does want us to learn and experience things. But he doesn't want us to get hurt. Getting drunk, doing drugs, and being, er, physically inappropriate can be bad for our health. Of course, we could try those things if we want to and we would hopefully learn not to do it again. But God gives us warnings for own good to avoid certain things. And the main reason I don't recommend getting drunk just to see what it's like is this--trials and new experiences will come to you whether or not you go looking for them. So why bother going something stupid on purpose when you know that you're going to run into plenty of stupid things quite by accident?.

Ok, again, my apologies. It wasn't a sturdy example. I was trying to find an example of something that one would not be able to understand without experiencing it for oneself. I will try to give better examples in the future.

I'm kinda' confused where you're drawing the line between these two ideas. Maybe by 100 years, you mean only this life. But then, you seem to be indicating that knowledge doesn't get kept between life times (hence, "I'd like to find out, but I'll only be here 100 years").

So you don't believe in nirvana? Do you believe in another life?

And once again, I'm sorry; my bad for the mix up. Sometimes I lose track of the fact that Christianity has no parallel to reincarnation, so certain concepts get a bit lost in translation. I'll try to hammer out a better explanation for you, but if you still find I'm confusing you I would be happy to find a better resource to refer you to. Please keep in mind that this is just my understanding of reincarnation, and that there are other interpretations.

Each person has lived multiple lives. In each of these lives, some huge, "cosmic lesson" has been learned by the higher self or "soul." The soul chooses which lesson it will learn in a lifetime before it is reborn, thus giving that person some purpose for living that life. Most major experiences in life are directed at helping one learn their chosen lesson. This leaves room for a person's free will, and the ability to experience and learn many things during life. Cosmic lessons can include Kindness, Love, Humility, Generosity, etc. Lessons can also include small things, like skills. Depending on what one intends to do in their next lifetime, one may choose to consciously carry the knowledge of certain skills or lessons with them into that new life. However, no knowledge is ever truly lost between lives. One may, by using certain meditation techniques, access knowledge from a past life and bring in back into the conscious mind if needed. The soul gains wisdom through experience and the learning of these lessons. Eventually, over the course of many lifetimes, a soul will become wise enough to no longer need to return to mortality. At that point the soul achieves a state known as "nirvana." What comes after that, we don't know for sure. It may be what you described – learning all about the Creator's Glory.

When I say that I'm only going to live to be about 100 and therefore my learning is cut off, I mean that I'm only going to be able to experience so much as the entity known as "Nurann." Maybe I will learn what I came here to learn, but then again maybe not. If not, I go on and try again until I learn that particular lesson. My higher self cannot achieve nirvana after this life time because I simply haven't been through enough experiences yet as Nurann or as anyone else. I'll make a pit-stop in the Summerland and then I will go on to my next life, maybe carrying some of what I've learned here with me into it. After I've gone through the cycle of life, death, and rebirth enough times, I will attain nirvana.
Did that help at all?

Well, I kinda' think when we stand in God's presence, we won't worry so much about the streets of gold. Materialistic rareities would not be the focus of heaven, it would really just be another manifestation of God's glory. Where else but God's land would we find golden streets?

Again I was trying to be philosophical and funny at the same time. I'll stop now.
As for the rest of your reply, my intent by asking those questions was to provide food for thought. You and the others have done an amazing job of making me think, and I was trying to return the favour. However, that being said, thank you for posting your understanding of the matter. It was very insightful and gave me even more to think about.

[artemis-lady-warrior]

Umm nobody lives more than once... reincarnation is a myth. When you die you go to heaven or hell. you don't come back to live again.
Eh you all probably all know that already. Just ignore me. I'm still in the land of raging hormones.