First Season Finale Discussion

[Phoenix]

I guess we've come to 'mortal combat' - Beast Wars style!

Personally I can't help wondering if it's such a great idea that such a large portion of our characters are dropping their weapons for season two and going 'hand to hand' or 'sword fighting' only. I mean I can understand wanting to save some stat points from the 'firepower' statistic and spending them on the other stats instead, but if so many people are doing it it almost seems to make the game a little uneven for those that don't. Dropping your firepower will allow those characters to increase their strength, speed, endurance etc to almost gain an advantage against those that decide to hang onto their weapons by becoming more powerful in every other stat. On the other hand if everyone that keeps their weapons get a sniper type weapon instead, it would be a shooting gallery. :p There's just something about the concept that seems a bit off to me.

The general consensus seems to be that the damage done by swords are affected by a character's strength (so how hard the person can slash) and by skill (knowing where to cut to do the most damage), but shouldn't speed be a factor as well? (A strong character may be able to wield a slow going broad sword, but a fast character could also do some damage with repeated slashes with a katana, for instance.) Is hand-to-hand purely based on skill, or on strength/speed as well? Every person I've asked has different guidelines for these things. Like for a big, strong character like Orcariner it makes sense to have him do damage using the strength stat, but in turn wouldn't his attacks be slower than someone smaller wielding a lighter weapon?

Were there any characters on the show that did not have at least one long range weapon? How practical is it to only limit yourself to close range?

[Alak]

It's not practical at all. Guns >>>>> Swords. I know anime and Hollywood like to tell people otherwise, but a person with a gun at firepower 5 will be able to take down a charging swordsman 20 meters away who has a speed 10 and strength 10 (assuming the gun is automatic). I'll be honest, I'm a little uneasy with the massive change to melee characters. Orcariner's only losing his gun because he's not an offensive fighter and his pre-TM armor is strong enough to stop missiles. I can't say the same for everybody else. Not to mention the fact that over half our players are going to have vehicle modes, which means that melee combat has little significance in regards to completing mission objectives.

Anyway, as for the size-doesn't-matter argument, it's true in a fight that has no rules. In a strictly head-on melee fight, there's nothing more important than height, weight, maximum reach, strength, and skill if the two combatants are similarly built. Optimus is much smaller than Megatron, but he wins most of the time. Of course, Optimus is just as strong but we see he uses his weapons, environment, guerrilla tactics, etc. When they actually fought hand-to-hand in the final episode, Megatron curbstomped Primal. When Blackarachnia defeated Dinobot II, she used her gun and its venom capabilities. Before that, she was running for her life. Terrorsaur was close to crushing Rattrap, but the latter transformed and rolled between the Predacon's feet and unloaded his armor piercing rounds into Terrorsaur's chest plate. No character is invincible no matter what the stat sheet says, but that's because they are utilizing what isn't on the stat sheet to help them win.

With that being said, I'm not going to say that everyone should start strapping their OCs with guns. I just think that players should really evaluate their OC and maximize their potential based on their behavior and capabilities thus far. You're not going to see Orcariner running around with an LMG because he can't aim to save his life (even though LMGs don't require good aim). You're not going to see Steelclaw give up his guns and become an iron fist monk with a strength and endurance of 10. Those are the only examples I can think of since they're pretty extreme characters, but I'm sure you all get my point.

- OP was essentially the same with 2 melee weapons and his signature shoulder cannons.
- OP's shoulder cannons remained as his primary weapons after his second change.
- Rattrap was virtually the same with the automatic rifle and detonators.
- Cheetor gained a melee weapon but rarely used it in combat since he prefers firepower as usual.
- Cheetor even remained using projectile weaponry after his second change.
- Blackarachnia was never good with shooting so she still emphasized melee combat after transmetalization.
- Megatron was had his primary fusion cannon that also acted as a melee weapon.
- Dinobot II still had the optic projectile and still emphasized melee combat over shooting.
- Tarantulas still emphasized on using his rifle, although he kept the swarm-fire technique even after the change (except using missiles instead of bullets).


If everyone is so keen on following the path of "Mortal Kombat", as Phoenix puts it, then maybe we should wait until we reach Beast Machines until we do that. After all, transformers weren't allowed to use guns in that show


Oh, and to answer Phoenix's question: the speed stat doesn't affect the character's quickness. It only represents the maximum traveling speed of the character. For example, Orcariner is going to be a 7 speed in Season 2 because he's a helicopter. While he's running, he's certainly not going to exceed 4. Arm movement, however, is much faster because he's a melee fighter who's well built and designed to be a Cybertronian soldier. Take Cheetor, on the other hand, who is a speed 10 which is identical to Optimus Primal's speed. Primal is an all-around balanced character and appears to excel in all stats. Cheetor, however, is a character who emphasizes speed and quickness. The fact that he can stop Blackarachnia's dart with his bare hands at point blank range indicates that his quickness is far greater than what his already-impressive speed stat tells us. Optimus, on the other hand has never shown such capabilities, so we may assume that he's not as quick as Cheetor. Although, his jet pack allows him to travel faster than the younger bot despite sharing the same stat number.

Long story short: I wouldn't really read too much into stats. They're just there to prevent us from going all god-mode on someone else.

[NaitoKage]

Kinda noticed that myself. It probably WILL end up a shooting gallery since all the characters are leaning less from a modern millitary to old fashioned.. I wouldn't even have to upgrade Glowstick to transmetal with the way they're going.

Or as Indiana Jones would put it.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_Ds2yt ... re=related Indiana Jones, is essentially Steelclaw. Though I admit, I'm surprised Steelclaw doesn't have a pistol for backup/close range encounters.

[Alak]

I'm not sure if he even needs a pistol, though. He has a pump-action shotgun. Worst case scenario, his forearm transforms into something that's powerful enough to shatter boulders

[NaitoKage]

True, melt their legs off with that thing..

[una]

The only reason I made a melee focused character was because I was used to controlling fighter-type characters. XD

Mortal Combat? Would be hilarious if the aliens think of a fighting tournament and say if an individual from one side wins, they get to leave or get some type of reward.


Oh you are right, Alak. That was Beast Machines concept, defeating the enemy without weapons but spirit. I exactly like that concept on that show. XD

[Blazemane]

Anyway, as for the size-doesn't-matter argument, it's true in a fight that has no rules.

Just to clarify my point, I wasn't saying size doesn't matter. I'd even go so far as to say size still matters in a fight without rules. The larger fighter in a skirmish is capable of fighting inventively too.

I'm just saying size doesn't guarantee who the victor will be either. Nor does skill, experience or versatility.

And I don't think too many people are giving up ranged weapons entirely. Even Venatrix gave her character a sort of... gun-sword (there's probably a word for that, isn't there?).

Wintersong's weapons are basically disappearing in season two, but as of this moment, she'll be keeping her wrist rockets. Her bio mentions the possibility of carrying bombs in some leg compartments (if I'm understanding this right).

...But I suppose everybody could carry bombs if they wanted.

Manterror will remain the same in season two- and thus be weaponless- but that's the way Hasbro designed him.

Ironclaw only has wrist rockets, but they seem to be of more importance to him than Wintersong's do to her. Ironclaw, after all, has a firepower of 5, to Wintersong's 2. And I think Mystrea probably had Ironhide in mind when he put the wrist rockets on Ironclaw.

Aurora doesn't have too much power behind her weapons (although her firepower stat does match Ironclaw's), but she's not supposed go Mortal Kombat on Predacons either.

Aside from Orcariner, who we've discussed, I think that's all the near-weaponless characters. The only two characters actually lacking all firepower are Orcariner and Manterror. I think ranged combat will still be incredibly important in season two.

That having been said, I do recognize that the way we all want to write our characters is going to influence whether season two becomes dominated by close quarter fighting.

Or as Indiana Jones would put it.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3I_Ds2yt ... re=related Indiana Jones, is essentially Steelclaw.

Heh.

Though I admit, I'm surprised Steelclaw doesn't have a pistol for backup/close range encounters.

I've thought about it before, but there haven't been any situations in the game so far where it's seemed necessary.

I'm actually curious though- have I missed some time? What would he need a handgun for?

[NaitoKage]

Hm.. Well other then the few times Blaze has had his rifle or railgun knocked away, not really. Though in something like BW, the same function a pistol could use would be no different then Dinobot using his optic lasers or Megatron's hip guns.

Also Frilla was going melee. Then there's Whitegrazer which.. well, honestly we kinda forced her to carry weapons.

As for Venatrix's gunsword, yeah they are sometimes called gunblades and other things. Her's particularly doubles as a sniper rifle and beam saber, so mostly it's for sniping.. fitting for a spec ops/assassin type character.

Oh, and Primal did stop Tarantulus's dart.. with it going through his hand. *LOL*


As for size.. There have been fights where characters of different sizes fought. But often the smaller character would win them with speed and firepower. Guns, explosives.. that sorta thing. If they didn't have the skill or quick enough action it would knock them around like a rag doll.

[Phoenix]

I don't know if I agree with the speed stat not being relevant to the character's quickness. I mean for a character like Orcariner it wouldn't make sense to have him be all that fast in robot form, but my Nemesis character 'is' supposed to be quick in either mode. Otherwise it would give her a rather grim disadvantage, not only being so much smaller and weaker than someone like Orcariner, but her armor would be like paper by comparison, and her weapon wouldn't even put a dent in him. Being faster would be the only way she'd ever be able to walk away from a confrontation with him, for instance. So I think the speed stat should be relevant to the individual character compared to similar characters, thus explaining how two characters with the same speed stat can have different speeds. What I mean is that if you have a fast car, for instance (using vehicles as examples), it could have a speed of 10 compared to other cars, yet if put in a race against a fast jet the car would still lose out. You have to compare the stats to that of a similar character/alt mode.

If you look at animals, for instance, a cheetah is the fastest mammal on the planet with a top speed of around 70 mph. Fair enough. Although they cannot uphold this speed for long, during the time they can they will outrun a greyhound and an ostrich (both 43 mph), but even the cheetah is matched by the sailfish (70 mph in water) and beat by the bird with the fitting name 'swift' (106 mph flight).

Now granted I am not saying a character that can fly at 106 mph will be able to run that fast on the ground, but I see no reason the speed stat would not reflect on a character's ability to be swift on his or her toes as well, such as when avoiding an incoming attack. I'm still boggled by the fact the endurance only covered the armor rating, since I always thought it would also include how long a character could maintain an activity. Guess I'm just used to that from other rpgs I've been at.

As for close combat fighters in season 2:

Orcariner
Wintersong (true, she retained a pair of wrist missile launchers, but with a firepower stat of 2 I question how powerful these could possibly be.. Seems like those missiles would have the impact of a butter knife getting tossed at someone..)
Manterror (mainly close range but with a fp of 7 due to mid-range saw blades, right?)

A bunch of profiles have yet to be posted for season 2, such as Venatrix, Valkyrie etc so I'm not sure if anything will change with those characters but Vena is mainly 'mortal kombat' style right now, right?

As for Aurora, eh, she's a fp 5 because I had extra points to spend.. I never intended for her to be a fighter style character.

[Blazemane]

Vela's bio does say

With Vela favoring a more quiet approach in battle she has a stealth mode that allows her to go undetected and able to sneak up on foes or friends alike, depending on the situation.

So perhaps Wildfire will prefer to ignore her firearms. Still:

Weapons: Mounte don her shoulder Vela sports a quasar cannon and on her back carries an Assault Rifle, both used in long range attacks.
For close combat vela favors a two edged energo-sword about as long as her arm, the blade is on either side of a two inch-hilt and slightly curved like crescent moons though facing opposite directions of each other.

As for Frilla, I may have missed something in another thread, but the Character Bios [S2] thread seems to indicate she'll be using at least some long range:

Weapons: Frilla’s weapons consist two crescent shaped blades that come out from the sides of her lower arms used for close combat. Long range weaponry is a double-barrel laser gun on one side and an Electro-Scrambler.The electro-scrambler can be used to cause electrical systems to go haywire due to the electromagnetic wave it emits though this is an exception to those who are more heavily shielded from such an effect.

Her weapons I did some change to go between a close combat and long ranged, hopefully balancing those two out since I doubt she'd really be wanting to be in close anyway.

Did some editing for Frilla's stats and I did take out the katana from her weaponry since the limit is four and well she'd likely be better for long range come to think of it.

As for Wintersong:

Wintersong (true, she retained a pair of wrist missile launchers, but with a firepower stat of 2 I question how powerful these could possibly be.. Seems like those missiles would have the impact of a butter knife getting tossed at someone..)

Yeah, I hear you. Her bio, however, does mention that they "still pack a punch". If that it is indeed true, then I guess there's a discrepancy between her stats and her bio description, which means she ought to change one or the other.

Hmm. Wintersong, are you reading this thread? Do you disagree about the contradiction? Because nobody wants to change your character's stats or bio without your agreement.

Manterror (mainly close range but with a fp of 7 due to mid-range saw blades, right?)

True. I was thinking ballistics/lasers when I was talking about ranged weaponry, but his disks do, indeed, fire. He still seems much more like a close range fighter to me though.

[Wintersong]

With being busy today I didn't really get to read this thread but ironically I was looking over my characters' bios and was considering how to edit WIntersong's and finally changed up her weapons a bit to keep a laser pistol and her wrist launchers, which will pack a punch enough to send a bot of their feet. But like I said before I prefer melee/close combat anyhow and it has shown in season 1. Well I noticed at least. And if you look back to earlier episodes Wintersong didn't use the wrist launchers till recently so I kept those to make better use of them and a laser pistol to balance it out yet her main focus will be close combat and melee.

Though she is a beginner and lacks that much experience in melee weapons so I plan to have her retain this and learn it as the game progresses.Hopefully the status matches up better then before if not I can edit it again.

[Alak]

I don't know if I agree with the speed stat not being relevant to the character's quickness.

Well just because we don't have a stat for quickness in terms of agility and dexterity doesn't mean a high speed character is slow in that regard. It's just something that isn't measured on paper, and it's up to the writer to play the character accordingly. For example, Blackarachnia has a speed of 6, but she's able to out-match most characters in terms of striking speed. If you think your OC is just as quick as she is fast, then by all means write her as such. It makes sense, so no one is going to complain. My OC's vehicle mode is inspired by the now defunct Pave Low which fly at nearly 200 mph, but you will never see his hands strike that fast... and somehow I don't think anyone will complain about that lol.

Then again, maybe we should find a way to rate agility/maneuverability/quickness/whatever to prevent godmoding. I remember when Valkyrie (speed 6) managed to constantly evade Glowstick and Steelclaw. Glowstick was firing lasers that traveled as fast as the speed of light and Steelclaw was firing tritium rounds which would realistic travel around 3000 ft/sec based on Earth's sniper rifles. Based on Glowstick's reaction to her mindblowing quickness, I'd say that even he recognized a little godmoding at hand. That's the only moment in the entire RPG that I can think of where quickness really got out of hand, so I'm not sure if we really need to find a way to measure it as a stat or not. Like I said earlier, most of our posts end up utilizing factors that aren't on the stat sheet. I only point to a character's stats when something really gets out of hand, but otherwise I trust the other writer.

[NaitoKage]

Heh, Steelclaw switched to his Charged particle cannon during that fight since he thought Glowstick's idea of using a continuous beam seemed like a good idea. So two laserpointer like thin beams, plus a bustercannon like weapon that fires for a long period of time and she dodged it all because her intelligence allowed her to predict and calculate the strikes dodging at a feather's width.

Though in the end, Glowstick has learned from that.. mostly that the only way to beat Valkyrie is to blind her and then hit her with your hardest hit possible before she recovers. IE: Wideshot then Minigun(borrowed from Steelclaw)/laserblast/Raverblade.



Ironically, I think out of all the Preds in the future, Megatron,Rampage, Glowstick, or Steelclaw wont be the thing Orcariner will worry about the most. It'll be Phoenix.

[Alak]

I think you mean "Nemesis" lol. I dunno, there's a lot of scary Predacons in Season 2. I'm not even talking about canon. I have no idea what a buster cannon is, but the name probably says it all... and two Preds are armed with them. I'm trying to mold Buster into my Battlefield 3 soldier which means he'll be specifically designed to take out aerial vehicles (much love to the stinger missile launcher!). Then we have the katana sisters (a.k.a. - Nemesis and Venatrix) who are supposed to be the only OCs to have maxed out skills. Starshadow is doing some voodoo magic right now which will end up giving her eye color changes... which is never good according to science fiction. Sonar... I don't even know what's going on with him when Season 2 comes around. All I know is that he's making explosives right now, although he needs a better throwing arm because a toss that only travels a few yards is begging for suicide.

As for canon: Rampage. Freakin' Rampage. Yes, Megs is bad because he's smart, but freakin' Rampage. Every Maximal and Predacon should be afraid of that guy. TM Orcariner's design was 100% intended to defend against Rampage because I knew Season 1 Orcariner would most likely get broken in half by the latter. I still don't think TM Orcariner will do any better, but better armor and 2 energy shields are better than nothing. If anyone's played the Battlefield series, Rampage is the tank that has an engineer hiding behind him constantly repairing him. You can't kill the tank, but the tank keeps shooting and shooting and shooting and you're dead. The difference is that in Battlefield you can kill the engineer then kill the tank. Rampage heals by himself. Freakin' Rampage

[NaitoKage]

Hm.. I dunno. Does a bird engulfed in fire and plasma which was once your ally making you less likely to want to fight her while she attacks you, engulfs your environment in fire melting the ground, sets you on fire, and throws streams of plasma in your face seem less scary?

Nemesis is tough sure, to a degree. If she gets a surprise attack like she did, she can do alot of damage quick, but Tigatron,Dinobot,Rattrap, Icebreaker, Whitegrazer, or Optimus should be able to match up with her in a fair fight, oddly.

As for a Buster cannon.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... xWoI#t=78s or http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... KEk#t=112s Should cover the kinda effects. In other words, a big energy gun that fires a very big blast.