Neutral Faction?

[Blackrosefencer]

I've kind of seen the whole label of "Predacon" and "Maximal" (and "Decepticon" and "Autobot") as symbolic of something resembling political parties. To say that it is symbolic of ethnicity or nationality doesn't really add up....you can change your party affiliation any time you want to just like you change whether or not you are a "Predacon" or a "Maximal," but you can't change your ethnicity or nationality (no matter how many times Michael Jackson tried). So it doesn't seem like an adequate representation of ethnicity or nationality.

"Predacons" are typically seen as the "bad guys" and "Maximals" are typically seen as the "good guys." But in the TV show, we can see development of characters who realize that they can still stand up for what they believe, but they don't have to be Maximal to do that. Blackarachnia, for example, says to Optimus (and I paraphrase), "I will fight with you against Megatron, but I'm not a Maximal." She holds on to her Predacon identity despite fighting against Megatron (until she's forced to change her identity because of the core programming Tarantulas implanted....whole other argument....I thought that was the biggest mistake ever...she should have stayed Predacon). It's made clear to us that the "bad guys" are really Megatron and his band of extremists (terrorists, perhaps?), but not necessarily all "Predacons."

In our version of the story, we're starting to see this develop as well as more and more Predacons like Frilla and Onyx choose to become Maximal following in Dinobot's footsteps from the show. So, I'm wondering what others think about running with this idea that being a Predacon does not necessarily mean that one agrees with Megatron and his actions and that Megatron and his extremist ways are not the definition of a Predacon.

We already have some bots who are kind of unofficially neutral so why not just make it an official faction?

I guess where I'm going with this is that I don't think a bot should feel like in order to stand up against Megatron they have to revoke their entire identity. Why does one have to be a Maximal in order to do what is right? Why can't one "do the right thing" and still be a Predacon? I don't mean that if one is becoming neutral that they are choosing not to choose, but that they are choosing to acknowledge that they don't have to let Megatron and his band of cronies define what being a Predacon means to them. That being a "Predacon" is not "bad" or "wrong...." just different from being a Maximal. They are, more or less, agreeing to disagree....agreeing to give peace a try....and turning their back, not on being "Predacon" but Megatron himself and his distortion of the word "Predacon."

Obviously, this is something that will take a lot of heads to discuss and develop fully in order to use it in the story line which can be discussed in detail later. Maybe the players need to discuss and decide what a Predacon is if it is different from what Megatron and his followers are doing.

Right now, we've already got ourselves a little neutral party started with the spiders' little team-up so maybe that can be kind of how this all starts. Their goals right now are much different than what I'm suggesting, but all things have to start somewhere. In the show it kind of started out as an arachnid team up, but I've always felt that it fizzled out and went no where. There was a lot of potential behind it......maybe it fizzled out because of fear or maybe because they didn't get along....or maybe because the depth and complexity of identity was over the heads of the intended audience...who knows. But I think we should kind of continue to let this little plot point develop instead of having it end up going nowhere like it did in the show.

Obviously not all bots are right for this....and we can't have too many....other wise it becomes over-kill for the Preds. But like I said....it's really just a proposition right now...specifics can be determined later once we've given the idea itself more thought.

[NaitoKage]

Ho boy.. This ol' can of worms..

The idea of Neutrality I can sort of see in a character like Tarantulus, but rather then "Neutral", he's just looking out for himself but still hates Maximals, which is still Predacon logic. But if you bring it up with other characters.. you'll quickly see most the Predacons don't want to follow Megatron anyway, only following him out of fear, cowardice, or stupidity. When you take that into consideration.. the Predacon army quickly falls apart and then you have Preds running off to do their own thing, which leaves them being creamed by the Maximals, joining the Maximals, or just having nothing to do period.

The hardest part about the Predacons is their independant nature, or as I've called it in the past "Herding cats" as none of them have a common goal or common interest and have to be persauded to do anything, otherwise they just sit on their duff and randomly attack things.

Besides that and experience in older games with such things.. I would have to expressively say.. NO to Neutral factions. 99% of transformers would not join those sort of things, with the 1% being characters with either social disorders (Depth Charge), Mental disorders (Arachnitron,Starshadow),Warmongers(Umbra), or characters who are purely looking out for themselves but have enough intelligence to see which actions will keep them alive (Blackarachnia, Tarantulus,Oynx,Nemesis,Steelclaw.)
As for Frilla, Frilla was originally a Maximal pod, she just happened to be found by the Predacons first and Glowstick brought her into the fold to use her mechanical talents to complement his own.

As for Political party, it isn't entirely.. While protoform technology was original Maximally developed, the programming for either group was still from their ancestors, the Decepticons and Autobots. Further more, each "faction" has it's own completely different type of script language http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Cybertronix#Character_keys and has general completely different ideologies. Further more, even if a Predacon changed his status to Maximal, not all the Maximals would accept him, they always have the stigma from the great wars much like the racism you'll see today.. or as Rattrap puts it "Once a stinkin' Pred, always a stinkn' Pred." This is part of why Steelclaw became a Pred infact as he didn't like how the Predacons were being treated.

In the case of Megatron, he is considered a Rogue or Criminal among the Predacons only because he doesn't follow the Predacon Council. Otherwise his motives are ENTIRELY what the majority of Predacons would do or want to do. I suppose you could compare his actions to some other characters, like Bludgeon or Thunderwing.. or any of the Destron "Emporers of destruction" since none of them followed Megatron or Galvatron and lived in the same timeline. But they called themselves Decepticons, and they fought for their own reasons and desires.

[Phoenix]

You know.. for the first time in history, I'm actually inclined to agree with NK.

A large number of the Predacons consist of these highly independent characters who enjoy scheming and causing trouble on the sideline. If all of these characters were to leave to join their own separate faction, that would essentially leave only Megatron's butt kissers as the 'Predacons'.

[Venatrix]

You know.. for the first time in history, I'm actually inclined to agree with NK.

A large number of the Predacons consist of these highly independent characters who enjoy scheming and causing trouble on the sideline. If all of these characters were to leave to join their own separate faction, that would essentially leave only Megatron's butt kissers as the 'Predacons'.

Hehe.... It hurts your pride, doesn't it Phoenix? To agree with NK is a strange thing indeed.
But don't worry my dear, you'll get over it soon enough

As my 2 cents on this topic, i must remain neutral.
NK and Phoenix make excellent points, but your's are sound as well Blackrosefencer.
Nut a neutral part it would never be.
The Beast Wars would change into a 4 way war instead of a 3 way war.

And not to mention, it will complicate the story line immensely.

[Blackrosefencer]

First of all, let me just start out by saying that I would hate for the whole neutral faction thing to become a place to dump Predacons who are only out for themselves and who want to take over the Predacons. I don't think that's what should be the intention. Perhaps that's how it can start out, but it should grow past that. It should not be a place for characters whose players are not willing for them to learn and grow past the stereotypical view of a Predacon. There are characters out there who this would be well suited and there are characters who should just be either Predacon or Maximal...end of story. I think it should be a very select group of characters that is kept from going over a certain size.

I'm really looking at the neutral faction as something more like reinventing the idea of a Predacon. There have to be some Predacons out there who realize that the old ways of the Predacons are a thing of the past. Their kind is doomed to fight and lose against the Maximals if they are always fighting amongst themselves. I personally think Dinobot would have probably appreciated an option such as this on the show. He wouldn't have had to go against his Predacon background, would have been able to uphold what he thought was "honorable" which clearly Megatron disagreed with and would still be the character that we know and love...only difference: He would not call himself a Maximal.

But if you bring it up with other characters.. you'll quickly see most the Predacons don't want to follow Megatron anyway, only following him out of fear, cowardice, or stupidity. When you take that into consideration.. the Predacon army quickly falls apart and then you have Preds running off to do their own thing, which leaves them being creamed by the Maximals, joining the Maximals, or just having nothing to do period.

Which I think is a HUGE problem we have in the RP already. If we were really to look at the number of posts made from players who are playing Maximals in comparison to the number of posts from players who are playing Predacons, we see a much larger number of Maximal posts. When we see Predacon posts, they are typically short, sweet and to the point and they more frequently involve actions instead of thoughts. When we see Maximal posts, they are much more in depth and thought out...they involve characters' thought processes, feelings and growth. The Predacon side of things has very little room for all of that because they are so over shadowed by Megatron. We hardly ever see any character development coming from the Predacon side of things with exception of a very few number of them. Whenever we do see character development it almost always ends up in the character changing sides and becoming a Maximal. So, isn't that a little cliche by now?

Having this extra part of the game would give the Predacon faction so much more to do and players of Predacons much more to think about. What is a Predacon? Who follows Megatron out of fear and who follows Megatron because they believe that its the right thing to do? Who doesn't believe that being a Predacon means following Megatron's extremist ideals and what do they do about it?

Right now, there is very little depth to the Predacon faction. This extra bit of story line would help to put some depth into that side of the war.

The hardest part about the Predacons is their independant nature, or as I've called it in the past "Herding cats" as none of them have a common goal or common interest and have to be persauded to do anything, otherwise they just sit on their duff and randomly attack things.

In the case of Megatron, he is considered a Rogue or Criminal among the Predacons only because he doesn't follow the Predacon Council. Otherwise his motives are ENTIRELY what the majority of Predacons would do or want to do.

I disagree. We only ever see Predacons who are under Megatron's rule. We have no idea what the average Predacon would do. If Megatron is considered to be a "rogue" or a "criminal" in the eyes of the Predacons, then Predacons obviously have some ideals that he goes against. If he goes "against the Tripredacus Council" then obviously some sort of discipline is meant to be followed. It is clearly not acceptable for Predacons to just go their own way and destroy things mindlessly because that is what Megatron and his merry band of misfits does.

Of course, Megatron is an extremist and probably bases his actions on actual Predacon ideals and just takes them a bit too far. That is always possible too. In that case, wouldn't there have to be some Predacons who would think that maybe he is taking things a bit too literally and who maybe have other interpretations regarding the ideals they follow. Just like Lutherans breaking off from Catholics, for instance. Maybe some Predacons think to themselves: "Well look....I believe some of what you are saying, but I think you're really overstepping some boundaries here in your application of this."

Besides that and experience in older games with such things.. I would have to expressively say.. NO to Neutral factions.

No offense, but your past history with something is not enough to deter me from wanting to try it. And I don't think it should be enough for anyone else. Just because it works on one forum, doesn't mean it will work on another. Consequently, just because it doesn't work on one forum doesn't mean it won't work on a different forum. Instead, we should take what you learned from doing it in other forums and use what you learned to help us keep from making the same mistakes. Your past history with neutrality could only make it work better....not worse.

99% of transformers would not join those sort of things, with the 1% being characters with either social disorders (Depth Charge), Mental disorders (Arachnitron,Starshadow),Warmongers(Umbra), or characters who are purely looking out for themselves but have enough intelligence to see which actions will keep them alive (Blackarachnia, Tarantulus,Oynx,Nemesis,Steelclaw.)

Oddly enough...those are all the characters that I thought would make a great neutral faction. I don't know about Umbra and Tarantulas....haven't seen enough of Umbra to know about him and I highly doubt Tarantulas would ever willingly work with a Maximal if not for his own gain.

As for 99% of transformers not wanting to do it....that really doesn't matter. It isn't meant to draw a large number of crowds anyway. Obviously, this group would make up a very small number of unique bots with some radical new ideas that most Predacons would not agree with anyway. So to have a small number of neutral bots would really not be a big deal. And they wouldn't be outnumbered because they would be fighting along side the Maximals.

A large number of the Predacons consist of these highly independent characters who enjoy scheming and causing trouble on the sideline. If all of these characters were to leave to join their own separate faction, that would essentially leave only Megatron's butt kissers as the 'Predacons'.

All of said characters would need to be highly independent enough to be able to make their own decisions about what they believe instead of being influenced by Megatron's intimidation. That would be a strength and not a weakness. They ought to be highly intelligent in order to realize that they can be more and do more working together than they could fighting against each other. They have to have the courage to know they can stand up for what they believe and not be bullied by Megatron. More importantly....they'd have to be willing to put their differences with the Maximals aside and learn to work with them against their common enemy.

This is more of an anti-Megatron campaign and not a "I want to take over the Predacons" campaign.

It is not something that would happen over night....it is something that will take much growth on the part of the characters, much time in planning on the part of the players and much discussion as a whole. The characters will obviously have to earn each other's trust, get past their differences, and get past some stereotyping and prejudiceness. It could open up whole new doors for the story line.

As my 2 cents on this topic, i must remain neutral.

Well played, Venatrix. Well played.

And not to mention, it will complicate the story line immensely.

It could complicate things, true, but it could also offer, as I mentioned before, a way to enhance the story like never before. Just about anything could either be a really bad decision or a really good decision, but nobody ever found out which it was if they didn't first try it and find out for themselves. We would need to seriously talk about how we would make it work...it's not something we could delve into right away.

[Phoenix]

Perhaps if we had a larger player base to begin with, I could get behind this idea.. Unfortunately I believe a third, "neutral" faction (who will be fighting alongside the Maximals..?) will kill the game. Keep the third faction small, you said, by only allowing certain few people to join? How would you decide who gets to join and who wouldn't? If the characters who disagree with Megatron all walk off, that will leave a very small group for him to lead. Keep in mind that Megatron is hardly the most agreeable person given his personality and beliefs. The Maximals would defeat the few remaining Predacons (especially since the players of said characters are among the rarest people to show up here) quite easily and there you go. I don't foresee any Maximals joining this neutral faction so it really would rip an already shaky Predacon group apart.

And what about those characters who may not agree with Megs' methods yet who are about as far from Maximal as you can get; ie Tarantulas ?

But having said that.. If your idea is rooted in the companionship your character found by working with the other spiders plus Starshadow, I see no reason why they can't maintain a (working) friendship and form their own little band without necessarily running off to start a new faction.

[NaitoKage]

As odd as us agreeing Phoenix, you are correct that even making a smaller Predacon group working with the Maximals, would break the game. Also.. the Maximals have no reason to trust any of these characters, their past histories show them as being down right bonkers and a threat to the survival of their own group.

[Optimal Optimus Primal]

While this is an interesting concept, I'm hesitant to adding anymore factions because the Predacons lag enough as it is. They never post! And canons have been tossed around from player to player because others keep vanishing, and OC's are left in the dust for the same reason. So the Preds dwindle at times and I don't think there should be any separation among them for a neutral faction until it's much more sterdy and reliable.

This kind of reminds me of the states in our country who want to secede from the nation. With this small, "exclusive" neutral faction, how they will be able to defend themselves from the power of the Predacons, or others like Tarry and Rampage? How will they deal with the Vok if they stumble across a trap? Where will they get their resources from and repairs? More than likely the Maximals MIGHT help them out (because Optimus so freakin' awesome and loveable !!), if they even wanted their assistance, but Megatron probably wouldn't hesitate to get rid of them, especially if he felt threatened by both them and the Maximals interfering with his plans of world domination. ...Like when Tarantulas and Ravage happen.

Well, the discussion on this is very good so far. Everyone is looking at the pros and cons. Personally, I'm not so keen on the idea right now because there are so many players in limbo and we're entering a whole new season with tons of new characters jumping in; OC and canon. Too much happening all at once right now and I'd like a lot more focus on organizing the Predacons this season and coming up with ideas to RP in episodes. I don't mind if Tarantulas, Arachnitron and Starshadow go their own way togather away from the Preds and avoid the Maximals or whatever might happen with them, but right now, I don't see it necessary to devote a whole faction toward neutrals. As was previously said, this would take time to develop if it even happens, so until then, it should remain Maximals versus Predacons (pick a side, guys! Follow your characters' sparks! ), and of course, the Vok on the side.

EDIT:
Holy crap, guys. I don't have time to keep up with these posts tonight.

[starshadow]

Ummm...umm....blargh!!!! Long posts! Um..since this topic's up, and if neutrals are noy allowed, Banshee might have a problem. I mean...she's a predacon who supports peace between all factions and resolve political problems together(such as the second class citizen etc.) instead of shooting each other in the face unless there is a need to. Well she's not a total Miss Sunshine though she likes flowers.

I was planning after her arrival, the preds and maxies have to convince her to join their own teams. Threatening her wouldn't intimidate her one bit. If the preds' art of deception works, she would join them. If Optimus manages to get her to join the maxies, good for them. But if both fails, she would join none but still welcome everybody to visit her cave if they want to have a talk or something else.

Eventually she would take a side of course.

[NaitoKage]

Uh not exactly Starshadow, we don't want a neutral Faction. a Third faction in the game would be a problem. You can have Banshee act neutral if you want, though Megatron would probably want her destroyed if she doesn't follow his rule.. and the Maximals would be confused.

[Blackrosefencer]

While this is an interesting concept, I'm hesitant to adding anymore factions because the Predacons lag enough as it is. They never post! I don't think there should be any separation among them for a neutral faction until it's much more sturdy and reliable.

That is the only logical argument anyone has made against this idea thus far and you're absolutely right. We can't make any kind of significant changes without first fixing that.

Perhaps it was a little too over-zealous to call it it's own "faction." I guess where this would have been heading in my mind is more along the lines of what Blackarachnia did in season two/three. She agrees to fight against Megatron while still retaining her Predacon identity. I just find it hard to believe that she would be the only one interested in keeping her identity as a Predacon sacred. I find it more believable than the fact that more Predacons seem to be interested in abandoning their Predacon identity and calling themselves Maximals after being taught all their lives to hate Maximals. I mean, it's not unbelievable to think there might be some softer-hearted Predacons who mght disagree with Megatron's ways, but to think they have no pride in their identity as a Predaon? That does not even make sense at all. I fail to see how having a few extra Predacons interested in helping the Maximals while still calling themselves Predacons would kill the game.

But obviously a whole new faction doesn't seem feasible at this point in the game. But it certainly is not impossible and it certainly wouldn't break the game. Plot doesn't break a game....inactivity breaks a game, inconsistency breaks a game, lack of cooperation breaks a game.....not to be a downer, but we have all those things already. Even a poorly developed plot point doesn't break a game...it's a minor annoyance that can be worked through. But we, as already mentioned about five times, wouldn't just jump into something like this....we'd develop it and really think it through. That's why we open up threads like this to discuss things and work through any possible pitfalls.

It wouldn't be easy, but it's not impossible. Don't confuse "difficult" and "hard work" for "impossible." If everyone thought that way, we would never have the kinds of things we have now....television, telephones, internet, computers....all those things were thought of as "impossible" before they were accomplished. But someone took the impossible and made it happen. I've seen a lot of low points in my life and I never got through them by saying "I'll never get through this. This is impossible to overcome." That being said, I also learned the importance of taking things one step at a time which brings us back to OOP's point.....

We can't even hold the original Predacon team together using cannon story line.....and I wanted to add in non-cannon story line? I was wrong to think we could just skip over something as important as that. We can't branch out from the story if the Predacon team can't hold themselves together on their own using the material they got from the show.

Well, the discussion on this is very good so far. Everyone is looking at the pros and cons. Personally, I'm not so keen on the idea right now because there are so many players in limbo and we're entering a whole new season with tons of new characters jumping in; OC and canon. Too much happening all at once right now and I'd like a lot more focus on organizing the Predacons this season and coming up with ideas to RP in episodes.

Yeah we have a lot of organizing to do with the whole Predacon side. But did anyone ever think that maybe they feel there is nothing for them to do? Maybe we need a Predacon-brainstorming thread or something....to get them thinking about some sort of story line to follow. Maybe they're just not all on the same page with their interpretation of things from the show......the thing about the show is that we see so much more development from the Maximals than we do from the Predacons. So it's no wonder why we do the same thing here in the thread. So maybe the Predacons just need some new way to develop their characters.

The idea of having some Predacons questioning Megatron's intentions is something the players of Predacons could run with (and some have already started implementing that into the RP and maybe that will be enough to help give them something to write about). Some of them may ultimately switch sides, as in the case of Onyx and Venatrix, but maybe some of them strengthen their ideals. Or there might be Predacons like Banshee, for example, who think "I am a Predacon and I want to be a Predacon, but I want there to peace with the Maximals." Maybe there are Predacons who are tired of all this fighting between the factions and just want a diplomatic solution. It's not impossible to believe. Maybe that can be something players of Predacons can discuss as a possible story line to give them more to write about. There's no reason why the question of what a Predacon is and is not can't be a minor plot point to give the Predacon players some sort of plot to follow and just not play as large a role as what I originally suggested. It doesn't have to be a whole new faction....I mean, perhaps those who are a bit more conservative as far as Predacons go, decide to just stick it out with the Predacons and find some ways to rally other Predacons towards their point of view.....or maybe they do as Blackarachnia did: Offer to help the Maximals in the hopes that, after the war, their peaceful relationship might continue and open up new doors for the Predacon team. But it just might do the opposite of what everyone is saying and unite the Predacons into a much stronger group.

But I don't see how approaching the Predacons the same way we always have is going to fix things. The players of Predacons definitely need to sit down and brainstorm how to interact with each other....we have a lot of characters undermining each other, running off to do whatever they want, creating story lines that don't match other story lines, and switching sides. Some sort of new plot point....whatever it ends up being....might help strengthen their ideals and better organize the team.

[Phoenix]

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by that the Predacons want to stay true to their origins as Predacons? The established storyline tells of
a Cybertron that is controlled by the Maximals and Predacons are treated as second rate citizens. The Predacon council was pretending to work with the Maximals while scheming to gain control over Cybertron in the background. Since most of the council members themselves were believed to have been spawned from Unicron or whatever it was that Tarantulas was made from, they saw it fit to attempt to destroy the Ark by sending their spy, Tarantulas, along when Megatron went on his little journey.

It was mentioned that Megatron is considered a criminal among the Predacons on Cybertron. Shady as he is, with links to crime bosses and what not, Megatron used to be a field commander in the Predacon army. Upon signing the peace treaty where the Predacons were forced to lay down their weapons and from then on had to live under Maximal rule (abiding by their laws and ignoring their own history), Megatron refused and went rogue. Then he stole the golden disk and we all know what happened next. Megatron refused to abide by the rules forced upon him and wishes to recapture the days of glory, so I'm fairly certain that in his own mind, Megatron views himself as a hero to his kin.

Beast Wars cartoon
Renegades like Megatron sneer at the Council for kowtowing to the Maximal Elders. The Council actually has been using this as cover for their slow, secret rearmingThe Agenda (Part 1), but we don't know if Megatron is aware of this.
The Council placed Lt. Tarantulas of the Predacon Secret Police, a direct agent of theirs, in Megatron's organisation as a spy. The Agenda (Part 2) They were aware of his plan to go back into prehistory and intended for Tarantulas hijack it, so he could completely destroy the Ark and its inhabitants. As they did not have Autobot or Decepticon origins, the Council would be spared the resulting timestorm and would take control of an altered Cybertron. Their own goal was galactic conquest. (Of course!) Other Victories
Unfortunately for them, Megatron escaped Cybertron in the Darksyde anyway, and caused a Maximal craft to go MIA in the process. The Council suffered diplomatic repercussions over this.
Later, the transwarp wavefront caused by the destruction of the Planet Buster eventually reached Cybertronian space in the Beast Era, hitting Predacon Command Outpost One, causing a severe power outage. The council apparently convened on the station immediately afterward, where they noted that the transwarp wave's signature matched that of the Darksyde, thus meaning that Megatron still functioned and was still carrying out his agenda. In order to prevent the Maximals from discovering this, they detonated a satellite somewhere near Cybertron, dispersing the wave before it reached the planet. They then dispatched Covert Agent Ravage in a prototype transwarp cruiser to track the wave to its point of origin and terminate Megatron "with extreme prejudice". The Agenda (Part 1)
When pressed by Megatron, Ravage admitted he was also meant to kill all the Maximals in the Beast Wars, as the Council wanted nobody coming back to Cybertron and embarrassing it. The Agenda (Part 2)

So based on this history what, exactly, defines a Predacon? Most Predacons and Maximals alike have the potential for both good and evil within them. Even someone as hardcore as Rampage has some traces of redeeming qualities (just look at his interaction with Transmutate). Is it to follow the commands of the council, perhaps not even realizing what the council truly stands for? Like loyal ants in a nest.

Yes, Megatron is guilty of some really nasty acts of cruelty. But to be honest I don't think the council's agenda of wiping out not only the Maximals but a number of the Predacons as well is a very nice thing to do. The Predacon, and Decepticon before that, history is a violent one. Much like Megatron, many of them will go to extreme lengths to get what they want. Why do some Predacons wish to join forces with the Maximals? An error in the Predacon shell programming, perhaps, or maybe they simply believe in a more peaceful solution. They wouldn't have to give up anything about their identity if they were to switch sides to join the Maximals so I don't quite see why a neutral side would even be needed.

The Maximals will always have a stronger bond because their faction, or unit if you will, is based on friendship whereas the bond holding the Predacons together is more based on threats and fear. Most Predacons have their own agenda which does not necessarily match the methods set forth by Megatron, but I don't necessarily think that means they agree with the Maximal way of doing things. Or at least those who lived as Predacons before they came to Earth and saw what they likely perceive as injustice against their kind. Also, as you stated, most of the episodes of the show focused mainly on the Maximal side of the conflict.

What I meant by the "breaking the game" comment was that the Predacons simply do not have the ACTIVE player base to afford to lose all those who may question the motivations of the evil tyrant that Megatron is. As things are now, Nemesis is having doubts, Terrorsaur always thinks himself better than Megatron, Steelclaw is also questioning things, Venatrix and Onyx are going the way of Dinobot, Umbra will go with whoever flashes the bigger paycheck, Tarantulas is obviously not fond of Megatron but he is even less likely to join forces with Optimus, so.. who does that leave behind, exactly? Are Megatron, Waspinator and Inferno going to be by themselves against the Maximals AND the so-called neutrals? If you want all of these characters who are opposed to Megatron's ideals to abandon him to follow Optimus instead, I just don't see how that could possibly end well for the game. The tougher the situation gets for the remaining Predacons, the less people are going to want to play them, and the worse it gets.

Or, if I'm reading your last post correctly, you are arguing that Predacons who do switch over to the Maximal side should be able to keep their Predacon identity, which I firmly agree with. Neither BlackArachnia nor Dinobot were ever forced to give up on their Predacon beliefs when they joined the Maximals, albeit I'm not so sure about BlackArachnia's 'heritage' as a Predacon given the fact she used to be a Maximal in the first place. But nobody's arguing that she should have to give up the essence of who she is for anyone.

Having said that, I'm all for more Predacon related plots to boost the activity. As long as we're following the story from the show, this may be a little tricky to do to any larger extent though. I just don't know if I want to let the Predacon team fall apart in the process.

Okay, I realize this post is all over the place.. Sorry about that. For some reason both kids are insanely noisy and active right now so I'm being torn in a million directions all at once..

[Blackrosefencer]

So based on this history what, exactly, defines a Predacon?

I have no idea. We don't really have much to go on. In the show we only see one loyal follower of the Council. But the Council, as you pointed out, was not descended from Decepticons...so do they actually count? All the rest are loyal followers of Megatron who we've already all agreed is considered a rogue and therefore all of his followers are probably considered rogues too. So, do THEY even count as the definition of a Predacon? We, technically, don't actually see the average predacon in action. Any Predacons we saw who weren't part of the original group were reprogrammed Maximal protoforms...so again, do they actually count? About the only Predacon we see who is not loyal to Megatron is Dinobot, but he started out loyal to him.....so even he is still considered, technically speaking, a rogue. But what if Dinobot is how all other Predacons on Cybertron act, but the only reason he seems un-Predacon is because he is outnumbered by these extremist, criminal Predacons?

I dunno...it seems open to interpretation to me....

Why do some Predacons wish to join forces with the Maximals? An error in the Predacon shell programming, perhaps, or maybe they simply believe in a more peaceful solution. They wouldn't have to give up anything about their identity if they were to switch sides to join the Maximals so I don't quite see why a neutral side would even be needed.

Well, a neutral side isn't really necessary. It was just an idea to discuss that wasn't received very well. It just seemed like an interesting an idea....to me anyway. Guess not to anyone else.

But as was pointed out we don't really have the capacity to make it work at this point in the game so I conceded on that. My last post was more of a discussion about how to take the topic we were talking about and make it into something that was more "motivates Predacon players to post in the forum more often" and less "completely new faction that might break the game."

What I meant by the "breaking the game" comment was that the Predacons simply do not have the ACTIVE player base to afford to lose all those who may question the motivations of the evil tyrant that Megatron is. If you want all of these characters who are opposed to Megatron's ideals to abandon him to follow Optimus instead, I just don't see how that could possibly end well for the game.

The thing is....it's already doing that on its own. We already have characters who oppose Megatron's ideals abandoning him....two so far (three if you count Starshadow)....three on the way (that's including Silverbolt), four if you count Blackarachnia if Una chooses to take that route with her when the time comes....five if you count Arachnitron's bizarre personality disorder and wherever that ends up taking her.....six if the Maximals ever outbidded the Predacons for Umbra....maybe even seven depending on what happens with Banshee....plus Scorponok and Glowstick die. And all on its own without a neutral faction. So to say that adding a neutral faction would "break the game" is inaccurate. By your definition of "breaking the game," it's already breaking.

Or, if I'm reading your last post correctly, you are arguing that Predacons who do switch over to the Maximal side should be able to keep their Predacon identity, which I firmly agree with.

Yes. That is essentially what I was saying. Why does a Predacon have to disagree with Megatron and be a Maximal?
Here is a summary of what we've already discussed: A regular, ordinary Predacon follows the ideals and the laws of the Tripredacus Council. Megatron is a rogue and a criminal because he does not. If Megatron opposes the laws of the council and I oppose Megatron.....how am I all of a sudden a Maximal? If you're supposed to be following the laws of the council and the example that the council is setting for you, then aren't you actually a Predacon and Megatron is the one who is un-Predacon? So all this time isn't it really Megatron who has rewritten everyone's thoughts about Predacons? Why would any Predacon feel that opposing Megatron must mean they have become a Maximal when they are actually doing what the council wants them to do?

Now, the average every day ordinary Predacon would, more than likely, know nothing of the Council's true intentions so could not be held responsible for supporting the Council's secret mission if they don't know about it. And not all of them would be aware that the Council was just pretending to give in to the Maximals. Where are those Predacons in all of this? Becoming Maximals? Why?

Neither BlackArachnia nor Dinobot were ever forced to give up on their Predacon beliefs when they joined the Maximals, albeit I'm not so sure about BlackArachnia's 'heritage' as a Predacon given the fact she used to be a Maximal in the first place. But nobody's arguing that she should have to give up the essence of who she is for anyone.

Blackarachnia was forced to become a Maximal when the whole shell programming that Tarantulas put in deteriorated (that's the best explanation I can give in my own words without watching the show for the exact wording). Sure she held on to the Predacon thing for awhile before that, but ultimately, it was, as she so eloquently put it "become a Maximal or drool oil for the rest of [her] life." Dinbot never really was given the option and died before Blackarachnia joined the crew to give him that idea. Granted, no one forced him to become a Maximal, but no one ever said: "Look, Dinobot...if you want to fight against Megatron and still call yourself a Predacon, that's fine by us. We know he's a lunatic and all you Predacons probably want him slagged too. So come on down." Maybe if Optimus said that (okay, okay, probably not in those words), Dinobot would have still became a Maximal...who knows, but ultimately, they both gave up a part of who they were whether it was intended to be written that way or not, it happened.

I guess what I'm saying in all of this is this:

All of this talk about "what is a Predacon" might be useful to players of Predacons to have something to write about.

Just to eliminate confusion:

I'm not saying that all Predacons should oppose Megatron. Nor am I saying that all Predacons that do oppose Megatron should continue to call themselves Predacons. Both would go from being very interesting to very cliche very quickly.

I'm just saying that this side switching thing seems to be a popular idea already without it being part of the story line, so why not develop it into some sort of plot point to encourage more Predacon characters to be more active in the story. Maybe having something to stand for will help strengthen their faction and help them to be more interested in the story line.